29. An Essential Intervention with Vanessa Guzman

Speakers

Greg McKeown, Vanessa Guzman

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Transcript

Greg McKeown    

Vanessa, you emailed me and I am looking through the email right now. You’ve read the book several years ago. And it wasn’t until recently when you started issuing your when you start reading the one-minute newsletters that you remembered growing apart from the values that were taught in essential ism, okay, this year has been particularly interesting to say the least. And married my husband in October 2019, wrote a book, build a business in empowerment and coaching and corporate consulting quit the job of 10 years had sorry, two miscarriages, or in the past year. And yes, of course, the pandemic too. You’re a volunteer for coaching children in fitness and emotional intelligence, you care for two older parents, one of which has dementia and cancer again, very sorry. The other my mother who’s so different from who I am, requires a lot of support given all the time I describe both lack educational health literacy, Spanish speaking only. I feel that we live in a world that provides us so many options to communicate, express, and link with all sorts of relationships and social engagement. Even through COVID, my husband and I, both in our mid 30s, looking to build a family as per my prior comment. Part of me knows the timing is welcome to welcome babies back in May and August was not the right time for me, which is why neither pregnancy lead to live births. I didn’t really know how to care for myself, still work, the work in progress. I have a difficult time expressing to my husband how he can help which can lead to frustration when I feel overworked. I’ve seen great success in my business to the point of exhaustion. I understand your principles so well that I to teach them as part of my coaching classes. My question is how to see the wise and gain momentum when you’re in the midst of the transition. meaning for me, for from exhaustion to enlightenment. I’d like to be in a place of peace. But engagement with that? What’s most essential? How do I recognize what’s most essential? I feel so mechanical that I’m having a hard time feeling who’s most essential? In addition to myself? Maybe that’s the answer only myself at the moment. How do I remain responsible for my commitments while transitioning? My husband and I are looking to move, yearning for change. How do I know this is the right time and where and for what purpose I sincerely want to change but finding that following select tips? And approach only goes so far until I lose some amount momentum and stuck going back to old habits I’d hate to see as not building a family because of the internal discourse I’m experiencing and the lack of ability to move slowly and steadily. Looking forward to your feedback. You’ve got more than you bargained for.

Vanessa Guzman    

Yeah.

Greg McKeown    

Vanessa, it’s really nice to have the opportunity to talk to you today. Thank you for making time for reaching out for emailing me in the first place.

Vanessa Guzman    

Thank you

Greg McKeown  

Vanessa, there’s a lot in that email. When you hear me read that back to you what comes to mind, how do you feel?

Vanessa Guzman  

It’s overwhelming. To the point that I want to cry when I when I heard you read through it. Um, it’s been a challenging year. Um, so just you know, for me, but for everyone really. But there’s been a lot of great, comfortable changes. And there’s been uncomfortable events, as you’ve learned and it’s overwhelming. I although I feel that I have this, this great spirit that keeps me going. Part of me is really looking to just relax and just take care of myself for just a minute and beyond. Which, which is really why I reached out to you. Because I really feel there could be an opportunity for me to just focus on myself the way that I know I deserve.

Greg McKeown    

There’s a lot of emotion in you as you respond to yourself. As you hear your own words you can feel the depth of the loss of the drain of the last year.

Vanessa Guzman  

It feels very draining. And part of as you were reading there were old belief system attributes that surfaced which is, you know, the old mentality of, of me being first generation in America and learning early on that, you know, I could do it all. So why not do it all and my ties to my family, you know, they’re very important to me, which is why I prioritized their well-being as much as I can. So, it’s been years of giving a lot of myself to the world, but not necessarily enough for myself.

Greg McKeown    

You don’t resent having served?

Vanessa Guzman  

No, not at all, I love serving it’s, I have the heart of a servant. So I love it. It’s one of my love languages. And they displayed I think, in every aspect of my life, and I enjoy it a lot.

Greg McKeown     

But in this moment you feel there’s a part of you that feels shattered?

Vanessa Guzman  

Very much. It’s a new season for me. I’ve seen a lot of success and growth through the years, but my body’s calling for a mega change in the ways that I that I’ve learned that have gotten you know, and I’m so blessed, to have, have had the energy, the intellect, the growth to do so much. For others, and for my career and for myself, and, and just bringing, I hope, right, paving the way for many generations to come. But at the same time, my spirit is very much fatigued.

Greg McKeown     

it’s not just fatigue, that I hear in you. It’s such deep depletion. Right? That it’s robbed, you have the joy of success. I remember when I had Arianna Huffington on the podcast. And she told her story about when she wakes up in, in a pool of her own blood to hit her head on a table she passed out. And when she learns that it’s all just because of basically a fatigue and deep fatigue. She says, isn’t success supposed to feel better than this?

Vanessa Guzman  

Yes, absolutely. That’s exactly. And I feel I feel the success; I feel the I feel the greatness and the blessings that I have around me. So when I, when I sometimes end my day, or even in the middle of the day, I feel that my body’s like, I just want to nap. And I always thought to myself that when I when I reached a point that I was comfortable in in areas of my life, which I am, that that’s when I would make a shift to relaxing. But clearly, I burnt myself out in the process of doing that. I never felt in especially in my 20s that I had it much of an option of being an essentialist essentially, right. There were a lot of barriers. 

Greg McKeown    

It’s not an option. You’ve got you’ve got so you’ve got parents, depending on you. Right, you’ve got to navigate this world, you’ve got to be the voice in so many formal settings where you’re translating and in your being a young adult even while reading into it, but even as you’re, you know, a teenager and even younger and so you’ve carried that burden for a long time and you felt like this is just necessary. This is survival.

Vanessa Guzman  

Exactly. That’s exactly it. And when you’re in survival mode, you don’t, you know, I never thought of the things that I usually would think about when I’m in thriving mode, right? Because you’re just trying to make it to the next step, the next day, the next project, not to mention life still is happening in between that, right, like, life never stops happening. So listening to my body was not much of an option, I would wake up extremely tired, and I would just keep going, because something I was needed somewhere, or I was trying to prove myself at work right to, to compensate to, to break some of the cycles, right? So that I would get in a leadership position where I could influence the system. I don’t, I didn’t feel comfortable being a follower. I wanted to be part of the change, which I am, that’s where I’m at today, I have great credibility with the work that I’m doing. But there it my body obviously has taken a toll

Greg McKeown     

You have invested you have you are proud of what you have done.

Vanessa Guzman  

Very, very much so. And I love what I do. And I love the relationships, and I love the neat things I get to do in health care, and for my community. And I love every part of it. Which is where there is always that, you know, tug of war of like, how do I continue doing all these beautiful things that I know I’m doing. But at the same time, just love myself a little bit more? Because I don’t often or at least until recently learn what that even was.

Greg McKeown    

Tell me what do you mean, when you learned recently what that even was, what did you learn?

Vanessa Guzman  

I think after especially the second miscarriage there were so much, I didn’t know about my own body, right. So it’s not when you’re, you know, getting test done or talking to your doctors that I learned that I’m like, Oh, I should, I should probably invest more in not because I want to see more for the for the future baby but because the my body carries me all the time. And it’s not getting like your hair done or your nails done, like, like we call self-care, these more episodic things that we do for ourselves. For me, self-care meant a greater appreciation for the value that I bring to this earth and honoring the things that are necessary for it to thrive, not just survive, and that that change the way that I that I eat, the way that I exercise, prioritizing my day. So it wasn’t until those two events happen that all of a sudden, my day started looking a bit more differently and no, saying no became a bit easier for me, which has been a long life struggle.

Greg McKeown 

Those experiences led to a change, really in your self-identity. That you said I’m a part of the equation of my life. It’s part of the equation of success, that I am healthy, that I am an asset that I am important, essential.  Not in some selfishness, but in a clear sense that I genuinely do matter, I matter.

Vanessa Guzman  

Right. And, and I matter to the extent that I have what’s important to me, in order for me to be fully present in the things that I love doing. I am essential. So that was really what became very, very clear. If these are the things these are my drivers, Then the passenger has to be fully present in herself. And although I knew that, you know, I learned that conceptually, I think I’ve learned that at a very early age, it wasn’t until some of these life events occurred that it was like a wakeup call. And although people may, may look at it, you know, which it was a loss of physical loss. For me, it was an internal blessing. Because based on the how I know things generally work, is that wake-Up Calls turned into greater and bigger things, and it snowballs into more complicated things if you don’t act upon what the world is saying, what your body’s saying to you. And I just feel that, that this is the time. Right before I emailed you, I had one of the one of your newsletters was about, you know, asking yourself what’s most essential today? And asking that question, every morning and ever since. So now we’re talking about, you know, two or so months ago, that’s what I’ve been doing. And the answer generally, is something about myself. That’s mean, that’s new to me, you would have asked that question six months ago, and it would have definitely been something related to work or, or someone else’s need, which for me, growing up, I was taught that giving doing, we’re all traits of you being a good person, although I love doing those things. I’m a good person by pure existence. So it helped me also redefine how I look at myself and the role that I have in this world, which is very powerful, as long as I protect it.

Greg McKeown     

You’re not only a value when you’re bringing value to someone else. Mm hmm.

Vanessa Guzman  

Exactly.

Greg McKeown    

It sounds like to use the metaphor you used before of driving in the car that it used to be entirely about getting the other people somewhere

Vanessa Guzman  

Mm hmm.

Greg McKeown

But now you can see that if you don’t invest in you, no one’s getting anywhere safely. That just not going to happen. Eventually, it won’t be sustainable.

Vanessa Guzman  

I see it so clearly. Because even when I, with my own family, I see that when I’m so spread out, and giving to so many sources, you know, I don’t think I’m fully giving my, my authentic self

Greg McKeown    

So here you are now you’ve begun this new journey. You’re in some ways, you’re just a couple of months into it.

Vanessa Guzman  

Yeah.

Greg McKeown  

And you’re still in recovery?

Vanessa Guzman  

Very much.

Greg McKeown    

And it’s almost like discovering this new pain point or this. It’s almost like discovering a bank account you didn’t know about. That’s like, really, really overdrawn.

Vanessa Guzman  

Right.

Greg McKeown    

You’ve got a bunch of bank accounts. They’re all looking fine. And then suddenly someone goes, Oh, well, have you seen this one and you’re like, oh my goodness, that needs to be invested in and I can’t pay that  all off in one day, I’m going to have to create a payment plan, I’m going to have to create a way to invest in this to get out of this mental emotional, physical debt.

Vanessa Guzman  

I agree. I completely agree. And I am beginning to learn what those things are, right? What’s going to fill the tank or the bank account in this case? Because I’m not used to, I’ve been pushing for 35 years. And I know that well, if you were to ask me how to how do you get from point A to point B, and I will give you a number of solutions. And, but something I don’t know much of myself is more of the silent, calm state. Even my voice has changed in the way I talk has changed over time. I will say over the course of 35 years, but especially in the last year. There’s been certainly a change in pace. And that’s been the theme this year. Um, there’s been a lot of, um, bigger and smaller things that have required me to kind of wait, almost I imagined like a yellow light, right? And just kind of slow down or wait. Um, which for me means it’s, it’s been preparing me for this right. For this period of slow as molasses, which is where I want to be.

Greg McKeown   

That’s, that’s an interesting idea to me that after having pushed so much, you want to be slow.

Vanessa Guzman  

Yeah, I just love you in the way that you just said right now. That’s what speaking to me right now. Steady, still, enjoying, right? The treasures that I have, have my family have my husband I have best friends who I love so much. And I just want to see emptier slots on my calendar so that I can save your that those feelings and those connections that I’ve made over the years and really focus my energy on those things that bring me the greatest joy, which is community work and I love that but I often don’t have as much time to dedicate because it’s I’m managing. I feel like an octopus. I’m touching too many things. So it makes me happy. 

Greg McKeown    

There’s an abnormal pace that has become normal. And one that you believed was required for survival? And maybe it was?  But now, but now. It isn’t required anymore.

Vanessa Guzman  

No, it that pace doesn’t serve me anymore. And, you know, I, part of my story, growing up and the belief system that you form as a woman, as a Latina woman in particular. When a woman of color, you’re, you’re always in a state of compensating in doing a little bit more, to make sure that you are, you’re known, right, that you are that you belong, that, that people recognize your efforts. And being rewarded for I think as, as an early age, I was told nice job, Vanessa. Many times, for that behavior. Um, you know, promotions, ton of promotions early on, I would always become the leader very quickly. Um, so they were rewards for that pace, for those abilities. And that led me to believe that that was the right way to go. And I’ve come to realize that maybe, maybe not right, I could have gotten there or not with a different pace. I’m appreciative that what happened, as it did, but could have could have had been differently. And I don’t want to miss out on this new experience that is blossoming within me.

Greg McKeown    

That’s powerful, what you said, because you’re open to the idea that maybe it wasn’t required. You can never know. You can’t go back and relive it. But with your new Insight with your new feeling, and this growing wisdom, he said, Well, what if I just thought that was what was necessary?

Vanessa Guzman  

Sometimes I even have experienced anxiety from not having something on the schedule. Or, or just doing the same activity for a long period of time. like watching TV that that creates anxiety, because I’m not used to having that much time for leisure. Or free time in general. So that’s part of the transition that I mentioned in my email is referring to when one has the willingness, the openness, understood understands the concept but in this middle, slow-mo piece, right, where you’re pulling away, discarding all your old beliefs and building new ones. With the energy that I have, right, from the police, where I’m at today, which is quite exhausting. How do you push forward?

Greg McKeown    

I am beginning to see the dilemma. But let me make sure you can see a different way to do life. you’ve tasted it. You’ve glimpsed it? You want more of it? Your reality outside of you is still expecting the old way of thinking and living from you. And now as older why is it you can see that and you’re trying to make this transition? So the question, I think you’re asking that the essence of it is, how do I think the word is how do I gracefully transition?

Vanessa Guzman  

Yes, that’s exactly it. That was the piece that I was probably most concerned about, was the, the reality, the practicality of applying Essentialism, in so many areas of my life and in my relationships, and just how I handle my day to day and my responsibilities to write as a grown adult with the business and my heart has, has been telling me on just step by step. But that’s very different than obviously my old conditioning.

Greg McKeown    

And that’s the thing that’s on under the rock of this conversation. It’s sort of there but just out of reach so far in the conversation is the others.

Vanessa Guzman  

Yeah

Greg McKeown    

I’m thinking you mean, your husband, your work colleagues. It’s just how, how does this affect them? And how do I communicate to them what I’m trying to do? And how do I bring them with me on this journey?

Vanessa Guzman  

Right! My, my husband and family, they’re all for it. This is something they they’re all very, very eager to see more of the side of me. So they’re, they’re eager for it. They’re ready for their journey. Absolutely.

Greg McKeown    

The one thing we want more from you is less.

Vanessa Guzman  

Yes, that’s very much I can imagine speaking to my husband or my sister, or my best friend, and they would be like, That’s lovely. That’s just beautiful. This is exactly where you want to be. And my husband has said many times that I’ve, I’ve come so close to making that leap. But then like something happens where I say, Well, you know, I have this project or I have this issue I have, there’s always something that kind of prevents me from going fully, fully into that into that new version. And I promised him maybe a week ago that that won’t happen again, I’m fully committed to making the necessary changes at a pace that’s unnatural to me but will become natural to me.

Greg McKeown    

Then that’s what you’re describing is, that’s the word from what you’ve said. so far. It’s pace. Yeah, it’s not a reduction in, in passion. It’s not a reduction in gratitude, or in the feeling that you want to make a contribution. It’s how do we ensure the right pace? So that you can get everyone to come along with you. And so that you yourself can create not an essentialist sprint, but in a essentialist lifestyle.

Vanessa Guzman  

Absolutely. Since I read your book, I think it’s I’ve been doing the sprints so I have a good season and, and they stick to it, and then when I fall, I fall, I fall hard. Um, and it’s almost like a, like a crash diet, right?

Greg McKeown    

I want to get more precise. When you say you’ve been sprinting before like concrete what is it you’ve been doing and then falling off from doing? What are the practices that you, you get on and off with?

Vanessa Guzman  

The most common one is my schedule. I manage so many different activities that I find myself consolidating three schedules today. And I start by blocking timeout, right, I have my midday meditation or lunch, right?

Greg McKeown    

The way that you said I stopped blocking out time, the tone in your voice is like.

Vanessa Guzman  

Priceless, do any of that.

Greg McKeown    

I mean, I’m following the first step of the process.

Vanessa Guzman  

And then it’s like, oh, it’s okay to take that phone call, like, I’m free. And I forgot why, like, there was a block for a reason it was not to talk to anyone, it was for some self-something. And so I fall off over time, on average, I’m good for like, generally like three to six months. And then I find myself working later, or taking on additional activities, which I love doing. But then I don’t essentially what I’m saying is the cut, the calendar doesn’t have the capacity to hold on to all these different things and be sane and healthy at the same time.

Greg McKeown 

What’s the trigger for the old behavior?

Vanessa Guzman  

Usually there’s a need to fix something very quickly. So in the past has been one my, let’s say, my parents needed me for something and there’ things going on there. And, and I go all in, right? So I go all in with most things that present or like if a friend needs me for something, and I go all-in. So it’s, it’s, it’s usually the triggers where I’m needed, if there’s something that I need to get done, or there’s a need, whether it’s work or personal even at home. I give so much of myself that there’s not much left for myself. If that makes sense?

Greg McKeown    

Oh it makes perfect sense. The all in this idea of second mile. If I if somebody needs me. I’m there with horns on man. I mean, this is this is the whole idea. But it’s not the whole thing. It could be more than the whole thing. Yeah. More than the request.

Vanessa Guzman  

Correct.

Greg McKeown    

A principle that I have come across and I’m experimenting with is the idea of go the first mile. Like not everything has to be the second mile. Going the second mile is a true principle. Right? But that doesn’t mean you have to apply it every time.

Vanessa Guzman  

Right.

Greg McKeown    

And so, I wonder if the next time you’re needed, you can actually pause and ask what is actually being asked for.

Vanessa Guzman  

That’s important.

Greg McKeown       

So I think it’s having like a tool kit for these need based interruptions or requests. when a need is raised for me. I wonder if you could literally, we could create the beginning of it right now. a checklist. I like the first checklist item might be what is actually being asked for. Right, actually, just asking that question. writing it down even just pausing write it down? What is the request? Second thing, I think could be check the calendar. Yeah. So that now you’re looking at the reality that you’ve outlined? Yeah, make some putting it on the calendar. I know it sounds so obvious. But I think that might be checkbox three is putting it on the calendar. Because then you don’t pretend that you can do everything you had originally planned plus, this additional thing. Right, I’ll just kind of do it all, I’ll just and if you are blocking something new, if you say okay, this will take up the space today that I was going to spend taking a walk at lunch or whatever was in your block or just sitting and thinking that block goes somewhere. So that at least you’re being more conscious of what what’s coming your way. What else should be on the checklist.

Vanessa Guzman  

And think options of it might be that even though it was asked I don’t have to do it. There things that I think I could say no to so. Or that someone so my strategy has been either know if it’s a clear No, or leader, right? So checking the calendar, I still do that. But maybe it’s usually not urgent, right? In my head it might be but it’s not in reality urgent. So giving options of something that’s later if it’s you know, available accessible to us and then determining and then booking it and then apply check, you know, checkmark number three which is putting it on the calendar if yes, right if yes or later or yes, like now but I think we need a no option A yes no option. Hmm.

Greg McKeown    

I think so. And in this this checklist, which we’re just beginning here helps you to not rely on your intuition in this moment, or your reactive emotion. Right, which I think pulls from the push.

Vanessa Guzman  

Right? Very mentality. Very much.

Greg McKeown    

You need, you need a pause, checklist. Right? And I think that checklist literally, you write it out, you print it up, you put it somewhere in your office, wherever you see it. When the request comes in you, you are actually looking through each item. Okay, because you want not the 10-year-old perspective to govern you.

Vanessa Guzman  

Correct.

Greg McKeown  

You want the today? Version two, or even three point o. I mean, this is like, this is like a checklist from the future. So that you don’t get so dislodged from the habits and design that you’re that you’re currently making. So that does only How do you feel about the checklist idea?

Vanessa Guzman  

I love the checklist. Can I add something else to the checklist? Yeah, please. What is my role in this thing that’s being asked? Because remember, one of my habits has been to go the second mile. Right? So if someone asks for advice on, let’s say, reading a paper that they wrote, um, what, what is the expectation? Or what do I commit to sometimes I wind up editing the whole thing, right? versus giving just general feedback, which could be the first mile? You know, so my habit is to jump all the way. And I think I’ve done it because of many thank yous and you know, that instant like, Oh, that’s great. You’re great. Vanessa, right. Like, those, those words of affirmation have really, really had an impact on me over the years. And, you know, the old version of a   saying, well, that’s, that’s great. That’s a good thing. You’re a good human by doing that by going the extra. And so we definitely need a safeguard and add it to the checklist.

Greg McKeown  

I think that the second thing I would imagine for you, is, it’s it comes as a warning, which is don’t try to be an essentialist on your own. Have everybody you can read it together. Hmm, everybody. And that’s what I have learned by watching people, I haven’t taught that and then seeing the consequence, I have been taught that by successful essentialists, who have created teams of essentialism, and culture around Essentialism inside of organizations, and so on. Right, that’s what they have done. They don’t just read it, like, hey, it’s just a book club. They read it with the sense of, hey, let’s create something different here. And we don’t know how to do it, but we’re all gonna read this and wrestle with it together. And I just think the, you know, getting everybody around you to do this and engaging in conversation so that you can develop new muscles with each other. Yeah, where other people can protect you even from yourself. That’s an ideal circumstance eventually to achieve

Vanessa Guzman  

Absolutely. I completely agree, I think accountability partners are essential to be an essential this or, or to drive many changes in life. Um, and many of us some of my friends, I know my husband, several of us are, are looking to live in that in that lifestyle. So it’s worth creating a fun, you know, team effort here, for all of us for our individual path, to really be accountable for, for ourselves, but also for each other in a way that we’re all in this together.

Greg McKeown

And I think that’s exactly what you need to say. I think you just say to people, I used to do it. I used to be 1.0 and this is how I did it. I want to be 3.0, which as I’ve achieved it, I have become a different kind of person. And we’ve got a different lifestyle. we’re achieving better results. But in less exhausting way. But I’m still in the middle. And I could go either way. So I just need your help. And to not be afraid to just say it that way. And let’s help each other create a different future.

Vanessa Guzman  

I love that. This has been enlightening to me. So I just want to thank you. And all my versions are thanking you right now. Because including the future ones. Because I think we all heard you loud and clear. And the way that you broke this down and allowing me to share my story with you was very important. Because it was important for me to for you to understand where these belief systems came from. And I felt that so thank you for that. And for any of your audience, I think who’s listening, I hope that this story speaks to them too.

Greg McKeown    

Vanessa, you’ve been a terrific guest on the what’s essential podcast and that point, runs like a gold thread through this episode. Is that what we say yes to, what we say no to is not as simple as this moment. There are deep stories, a deeper narrative behind why we do what we do. And as we create space to explore where we’ve come from, what led us to make decisions in the way we make decisions. We can start being liberated, to create a new story. And really, you’re the one that’s done this today. My job is just been sort of to listen. And you’ve helped construct for us this almost three act play, where you’ve been, where you are, and where you’re going. I want to end on that theme, that somehow in some sort of miraculous way. There are moments in life where it is as if our future self speaks to us encourages us helps us to go forward and your future self-care. To be saying to you today, you’re going to make this. It’s going to work out. You keep going, do it steadily do it in a paced way. But it’s going to work out so you can breathe and enjoy this journey. Yeah. Because you don’t have to be pushing at the very edge in order to achieve it. You’re going to get there in the relaxed version of you will do it.

Vanessa Guzman  

Thank you, Greg.

Greg McKeown     

Thank you so much, Vanessa.