Speakers
Greg McKeown, Anna McKeown
Greg McKeown
All right, so let’s get real. What is something going on in our life, your life that is hard right now off or feels harder than you’d want it to be but it’s also important?
Anna McKeown
It’s a great question. One thing comes to mind is we have teenagers in the house and one of them is getting ready to go to college. And we’re going through an interesting transition there. And parenting feels a little bit hard right now.
Greg McKeown
That’s a light way of saying that. That oh it’s just a little transition. It feels a bit tougher than that. I mean, unexpectedly tough in a certain way. We did, we did sort of anticipate that there would be a transition. But there’s been an away that this child has processed things when she’s just very tough on herself.
Anna McKeown
Yeah, way too tough on herself.
Greg McKeown
But this has been true. Since she was very young.
Anna McKeown
Yeah, four years old. I remember,
Greg McKeown
what do you remember, when she was four years old?
Anna McKeown
I remember that her and her sister had found a caterpillar and they were very excited to come and show it to me. And in their excitement, they were running with it. And it fell out of her hands, and it got squashed. And she felt so horrible. She felt like there were eternal consequences to this Caterpillar dying at her hand, which was completely accidental. And completely surprised me that she would feel such I mean, of course, her emotions are not fully mature.
And so these are very big emotions and she’s trying to make sense of everything that had just happened. So, so there’s that context, but the, the effort to try and reassure her that she was okay that even this Caterpillar was okay. Even though you know, it was dead, that it wasn’t in pain, that it was accidental. But she was just sure that that she was a bad person, or that she would be punished for this or that. That there was, you know, some terrible consequence waiting for her because she had, she had accidentally squashed this little caterpillar.
Greg McKeown
Yeah. And this was just at four years old, as you’re saying. Yeah, that seemed to give you an insight into how she processed the world around her.
Anna McKeown
Yes. Yeah.
Greg McKeown
And, and fast forward now to her as a teenager, and?
Anna McKeown
yeah, and she has very high expectations of herself. She expects a lot from herself, but a lot of things are invisible to her. I think that is a very human thing. I know that, that we’ve had this conversation about myself, and that the things that I’ve taken on or the things that I’m doing will be invisible. And all I have, on occasion, said, I feel like I’ve gotten nothing done today. And genuinely felt that and you’ve stopped me and, and, and tried to, you know, help me see actually what I have been doing all day.
Greg McKeown
I find that I need to do that from time to time with you. And also with our daughter. We’re talking about the end of the day, the sense of, oh my goodness, I’ve done nothing. And I pause and I say well, is that true?
I mean, let’s just go back, you know You, you got up this morning and you attended seminary, this early morning class before school even began, you’ve worked on some of your college classes, you have it for you, the list can be ridiculously long for I haven’t got anything done type perspective.
Anna McKeown
Yeah, it’s absolutely true. Because life can be so busy, you can be in such a reactive mode, whatever you do whatever your job, and that it becomes invisible all of the fit all of the things that you’re doing. And so you have, I have had a set goal, like I want to achieve a, b, and c. And because I haven’t achieved a, b, and c, all of the things I haven’t achieved are, are invisible or counted to nothing. When they needed to be done. I just hadn’t factored them in to the day. And one of the exercises that’s helped me to get a better perspective is to try and record as the day is happening, what I’m doing. And it’s actually kind of hard to do, because you have to interrupt what you’re doing to do it. But in doing that, it’s like oh, yeah, I have been nonstop. And just because, you know, feeding someone or helping someone find something or getting a load of laundry in I mean, these are just mine, everyone has different things that that they’re doing. seem to be routine or just invisible. I forget and I feel nonproductive.
Greg McKeown
Well, that’s when that’s what’s so amazing about it is the sense of having done nothing. When it was as you just said, nonstop that that to me, is that the odd gap with our daughter who is just so actually doing so much. And doing so much right and getting so much right in her life. Just got into college
Anna McKeown
Yeah with a ton of stress. I mean, she’s, she’s super, she is doing very well. And she is really pushing herself. And if I could give her a gift, and that’s the that’s the thing you face as a parent is, oh, here’s my child, they’re 18 or turning 18 they’re about to, you know, leave the nest. And I didn’t help, you know, I thought maybe by that time, I’d be able to iron out all of their misperceptions or, you know, certain weaknesses that, that it’s like, nope, those are going to be part of them for a while and, and maybe their whole lives and one of hers. I wish she could learn that she doesn’t have to beat herself into productivity that she is already productive and capable and achieve so much and has the ability to do so.
Anna McKeown
Well, yeah, absolutely. And there’s a principle here that I, I think after this podcast, I’m going to go and talk to her about and it is, can you say? Yes, there’s a principle here that I think after this podcast, I’m going to go and have a conversation with her about. And that is that the things she’s a good kid, the things that she’s doing. Yeah, some may see as a waste of time. But really, she wants to be a filmmaker. And I don’t know a single female filmmaker, who doesn’t spend hours and hours and hours watching content watching film, video movies. And so she is naturally drawn to that. And that’s not the only way she wastes time Sure, she’ll get on Pinterest or whatever, and, but she’s trying to, you know, she likes to decorate her bedroom, she wants to make her bedroom look a certain way. So these, these impulses, I feel like are actually creative. And, and they’re, they’re tempting, because they feed into what she wants to be doing and creating. For the most part, of course, everything needs to be, you know, deliberate, you want to be deliberate about these things, but I want her to this conversation I want to have with her is to stop beating herself up for being pulled into things that are a natural interest to her. And, of course, she needs to get economics done. Of course, that is vitally important. And she will get it done. And that’s the fact. But but to take a step back and go, Okay, this thing that I’ve spent time on, why was I drawn into it was, was it? I mean, some things are truly addictive. But Was this an addictive thing? Or was this more of a creative thing that I just was interested in and wanted to spend some time on, and to allow time for that? And allow herself to have that desire, without panic, you know, beating yourself up.
Greg McKeown
Just think of the spirit of what you’re just saying. The, the painful journey of trying to beat yourself into someone you aren’t, to not recognize impulses within you as being good, as being like gifts that need to be developed and grown and nurtured instead of beaten out of you, have you thrown away, you know, discarded every what you just said is so helpful. And you and I have talked about this in our own lives. Even recently, I’ve been talking like in the last few weeks or last few months, that there are things while I’m talking about myself really hear that there are things that I used to think were just personality quirks. And, and literally here, early 40s I go up, what if those are gifts, what are those that are actually things that you’re supposed to develop that you’re supposed to not slightly apologize for, but embrace and develop and do something with even if They’re not the things that other people do. Or even if it might be a little inconvenient that you approach it a certain way that you do, you’d probably give some specifics here. But what is a specific example? One, is, I seem to have an ability to, to get things done, make things happen. But I don’t know how. And I don’t have necessarily a strategy for it. Or a plan, to your satisfaction.
Anna McKeown
To my satisfaction?
Greg McKeown
Really to any satisfaction.
Anna McKeown
I just wanted to clarify.
Greg McKeown
Yeah, but I mean, the reason there isn’t a plan, in one sense, but underneath it, I just was talking to Bob Gough, author of Dream Big, and everybody always, you know, and a friend of mines. Yeah, love does. And he said, Yeah, underneath the surface, there’s deep strategy. And that that feels so familiar to me, that there are just things that impulses, I think that’s the next thing to do. I think I just need to go and do that.
Anna McKeown
Yeah I mean, I can attest to this. And it is a wonder to behold.
Greg McKeown
Wow, that’s quite a statement.
Greg McKeown
Not that I was suggesting I would. I just think there’s a theme here of there’s a problem, which is that everywhere we go, there we are. So knowing ourselves is can be tricky. And then beginning to have it dawned on us Wow, I’m actually that that thing is actually strong in me, it’s something that I feel an impulse towards something but that and then discovering that that isn’t a bad thing, even though it’s not how other people do it.
Anna McKeown
Right, it’s what sets you apart and makes you different and maybe makes you feel a little uncomfortable. And those things can actually be actually be a gift or a talent and set you apart in very positive ways.
Greg McKeown
It’s things that can make other people feel uncomfortable. Hmm.
Anna McKeown
Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s true. Because it’s not their strength, and therefore, we can mistake as a bad thing or a weakness.
Greg McKeown
Yeah. Is because it’s not their impulse, right, or impulses to some other things. So it’s not that it’s not that I’m being critical of other people in this observation. It’s just we have unique different ways of seeing the world. And, and how, how careful we need to be. I mean, you’re really good at this. But even well, but even you could you know, we’ve had to go on a journey together around some of these things that are so different. I mean, you are absolutely no different.
Anna McKeown
Yeah, no, there are things that that you’ll be bold in and I feel very uncomfortable. And I’m like, Oh dear, I don’t know if this is okay. Or you know, is this
Greg McKeown
Because you wouldn’t do that
Anna McKeown
Against the status quo?
Anna McKeown
Yeah, I’m definitely I like to fly under the radar, I like to observe, I like to follow the rules, I like peace. I don’t like to draw attention or stir anything up. So yeah, if so, yeah, I’ve had to face some fears. And but I can honestly say that this, I mean, there I believe that there are many of these things in all of us and we’re just talking about one specific thing with you but that that is truly a gift. And it is amazing to watch that gift at play or at work.
Greg McKeown
Yeah, well, I was I was just going to say that your gift around, being seeking peace. And being able to achieve peace is obviously a gift as well. And it just brings us to this, this phrase that we’ve been using with each other recently last because I’ve been using it, mostly, but it’s, look, let me do my thing, and let you do your thing. Like, just don’t get in, let’s not get in each other’s way about it. And that’s not at all the same. And we understand this, I’m sure that we’re not saying, like, you go in your direction, and I’ll go in my direction. No, it’s we want to do be going in the same direction. But let me do it the way I would do it,
Anna McKeown
Right, let me bring to it my strengths and my strategies, and you use your strengths and your strategies. And these things can both work together to accomplish what we’re trying to achieve.
Greg McKeown
It’s been quite powerful for me, because I feel myself that I am leaving to learn on almost new way of doing life recently. I call it of being in go. And another metaphor I’ve used for it is being is just sort of a surfing metaphor, that you’re not fully in control of your life. And yet, you can feel that there is a force of play, and you are a part of that play.
Think of Walt Whitman, the powerful play moves on and you can contribute a verse, there is a powerful play at work. And my job is sort of just not just contributed verse, just get in that play. Now you’re in the play, it’s like, and you’re on stage go. And I can’t give. I mean, I spend lots of time we do talk about goals and long-term visions, and so on. We’ve had many, many conversations about that over the years so it’s not like suddenly, there’s none of that. But this still feels different. It’s just, it’s go, here’s the next thing to do go. And I can feel that there’s deep strategy underneath it that I can’t even articulate. But I know the next thing let’s This is who to reach out to this is who to find this is who to track down. This is who to read it. And yet there’s a sort of how I would describe it. See, I don’t know, feel odd using this phrase now. But it’s like deep intelligence. But I don’t mean, why I’m so intelligent.
Anna McKeown
I mean, right. You’re not saying you’re deeply intelligent as a, as a whole statement, you’re saying there’s a certain skill set here that goes deep in me that I know something about in a deep way?
Greg McKeown
Yes. And the reason I would describe it as deep is because I cannot describe it.
Anna McKeown
Right? It’s unconscious competence.
Greg McKeown
Yes. And I don’t even recall learning it. So it is, you know, even using that phrase, unconscious competence, which I don’t think is wrong, sort of feels like well, it’s still competence. I mean, it’s probably right. But it’s not because I’ve done it 100 times, and now I have it unconsciously,
It’s just there, ready to be awakened. And how true it feels to me that with our children, and you’ve brought that wisdom to the table, that the job of the parent is, is seriously to nurture that what is within them, not hammer it out of them? Look, we’ve just got to get you to be like everybody else, we’ve got to get you to be like me. We’ve got to get you to make decisions the way we would. We’ve got to you, I need you to get on this particular track of education. And Ryan, this thing or, yes, you’ve got to be the lawyer, you’ve got to be a doctor, you’ve got to be a whatever
Anna McKeown
Right? Yeah, there’s a there’s a quote, and I wish I knew the name. But it’s Malala is father. And I just read this quote recently, and it really named something for me some It was like, Yes, that is what I’m trying to do with my own children. And he said that people I’m paraphrasing, obviously, but that people will ask him, you know, what did you do? You know, as the father of Malala, what did you do to help her to be so articulate and bold and you know, all of these lovely attributes that were describing her and he said, I, I don’t know if he says it exactly this way, but he’s like, I didn’t do anything. I just didn’t clip her wings. And that I just didn’t clip her And that really named something for me that I’m like, Yes, that is what I’m trying to do. As a parent, I’m trying to help my children, discover who they are, and hopefully, begin discovering what we’re talking about. And developing a deep respect for each other, and who each of us are, with our perceived weaknesses, with our actual weaknesses, with our hidden strengths with our visible strengths, and begin to become acquainted with these things and respect them. Because, you know, we were just saying, Oh, you don’t need to be a lawyer, you don’t need to be a doctor or whatever. We need the lawyers, we need doctors, we need people in all we need artists, we need musicians, you know, I mean, obviously, I think everyone is like, Yeah, of course. But who’s who’s? I think it’s a rare parent who’s comfortable with their child doing something that is a little scary, or a little daring, or that is a little unsure, you know, oh, I studied acting, I studied music, dance theater in college, and the amount of time someone would ask me, so what are you going to do with that? And the amount of times that I was like, you know, what, I’m not sure. But I, I felt very deeply that that this was, this was the path I needed to be on. And I really, I really had to trust in that. And I, and I did trust in that. And, and it gave me great freedom, to be able to, to enjoy that and try and develop that without worrying about the future. Not that it wasn’t on my mind. And but to have that, to have that freedom. I mean, that might really go against certain people’s views and values. So I, of course, don’t want anyone to think that that is the only way to approach life. But speaking personally, it was, it was really wonderful to be able to pursue something that that developed things in me. That wouldn’t be seen, you know, just by looking at acting, you know, someone’s like, Okay, well, what skills is that going to give you?
I mean, it has provided so many wonderful insights and, and empathy and looking at things from so many different perspectives. And I mean, it was a really good, good journey to be on.
Greg McKeown
Well, and you just said the word, like, good journey, as if it was just the past. And, of course, there was this early phase. I mean, when we first met each other. I mean, literally, I mean, that’s the story, right? you’d write about me in the newspaper. And then a few weeks later, I’d read about you. Because you just become Belle in the national tour of Beauty and the Beast. And that was our first year of marriage was was, you know, traveling all across North America was my crash course in Americana. And I got to watch you perform in the show, you know, hundreds of times, I suppose. And, and it was amazing and I loved it. And that was like precious memories. That’s just a glimpse into that period. But recently, you have felt, well, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, really, but a bit of a tapping to pick this up after having said no, I don’t want to do it. It doesn’t feel the right time for years and years. And then all of a sudden, it starts to come. Like a little, like, beating heart just starts coming back to life. And well, first of all, what’s that been like?
Anna McKeown
Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s been, as you describe, and then also, it’s been terrifying. I have truly shed tears of fear, like and just, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? Why am I putting myself through this? Is this really that important? Or you know?
Greg McKeown
You’ve said, you’ve basically said, in every possible way is this really essential? It can not be essential. I don’t need to do this. The family is essential. I want to do this. This I know matters. Surely I can is you’ve been like, basically trying to squirm out of it.
Anna McKeown
Yeah, at different times, because I feel like I’ve been really spoiled for the last, you know, 17 years or so. And I know, not everyone feels this way. But for me, focusing on the home, and the culture of the home and my children has been very fulfilling. And it’s been so fulfilling that it’s really hard for anything to measure up in importance. But of course, my children are growing up, they’re starting to leave the home. And and I’m starting to take a look at my own talent development. In some ways, I, I wonder if I’ve, I’ve wondered at times, if I’ve neglected it for too long, you know, oh, you let that go. It’s gone. Yeah, it’s not coming back, you know, and, yeah, and yet, I have felt this, this, tapping this invitation in my soul, saying, you need to start develop, like, you need to dust off those talents and start developing them again, start taking time for them again. And, you know, maybe it’s, maybe it’s a bit shocking to people, but it’s, it’s been really hard to prioritize that. And, and the, the journey has very much been just, okay, what’s the next step? Because anything beyond the next step has just felt impossible, frankly, and, and so I feel very blessed in having a next step in this in the next step, being illuminated for me, and, and I mean, I remember I, I was reaching out to strangers. And very, you know, like, shaky acquaintances, I’m trying to find out if there might be a virtual group that I could join to, to kind of start acting again to start practicing. And in the process of doing it, I’m like, Okay, I’ll send this one email. And that’s what I can do. And if nothing comes of it, then that’s fine. I’ll move on. And you know, if another step is illuminated, fine, but then I got a response. And then I was connected to someone and this class or this forum opened up and and then lo and behold, I’m in a forum and I’m with I’m attending this with really talented people. So intimidating. And I’m like, What am I doing? I, I stink at this. I’ve lost all my talent. But okay, I’ve lost all my talent. But okay, I will, I will do the little self tape for this forum and just turn it in. And that will just have to be success. It’s, it’s like in, in your new book, effortless, where it talks about, you know, the courage to be rubbish. It’s like, okay, I just need to be okay. With being rubbish. And starting there. And, and so yeah, it’s been, it’s been like that. It’s been one one step. enough for me, and and it’s been really painful at times emotionally, just feeling awful about where I’m at, and vulnerable and what I’m producing. But But I have felt very strongly just take the next step and just take the next step. And that has, that has been enough. And it’s, it’s been it’s been good. It’s been good.
Greg McKeown
What you just described is exactly what it’s been. You’ve had to have the courage to be rubbish. And that’s not me thinking you’re rubbish that’s you inside. Going I am embarrassed by this. I am not polished. I am Not I do not feel as I once felt about this. And, and yes, there’s this beating heart, but it’s just covered with dust and like just hasn’t been this heart has not been exercised. This has not been going. This has not been going on a run every day. And the journey of just getting that moving has been emotionally expensive for you.
Anna McKeown
Yeah. Yeah. But it’s been good.
Greg McKeown
That’s what’s necessary to help you be able to progress in an optimal way and just start to accelerate in your, in this career in this pursuit, is that we’ve got to, we’ve got to make it cheap to fail. We’re gonna make it cheap to learn, and what I think that looks like because it already feels so expensive to you anyway, is lots of support. And, and lots of nurturing around you and lots of listening and not trying to fix it or do it for you, but just, you know, go along with you on the journey. That to me is one of the things and the second thing you can do is what you just said, which is just do one thing. What’s the next thing, don’t make an expensive by trying to think of all the 1,000th step, do the next obvious step, take that next obvious action. Because then that’s, that’s all you’re risking, it’s like one chip on the table, do it, see what happens, then play one more chip, and so on. As you take these, you know, take these little bets, learn from them fast and keep going. Yeah, and I go ahead.
Anna McKeown
No, I just absolutely it. It kind of embodies something I’ve been, I’ve been chasing, I feel like since recognizing this weakness in me, and it is chasing resilience, you know, trying to create a culture of resilience for myself and for those around me, including my children, and a safe space to fail, and to try again and to and to praise effort and to and to focus on, on the on the value of taking the next step. And I think tying that back to just kind of what we’ve been talking about in this conversation. having the courage to explore and to allow ourselves to, to let our perceived weaknesses become strengths, and having the courage to let those things that, that maybe other people don’t know what to do with. See the light a little bit more and, and allow that in others to when we’re like, oh, that makes me a little uncomfortable. But actually, there might be something really valuable in that, that my friend is doing or my coworkers doing or my child is doing. And allowing, you know, having the courage to allow us all to be a little rubbish sometimes.
Greg McKeown
Well, and the thought that just comes to my mind here is there’s a perception, I think, pretty universally accepted that strengths and weaknesses are polar opposites. And there’s, I mean, there’s a verse of scripture that we’ve read and discussed many times, that, that if the, if we are humble, that God can turn our weaknesses into strengths, which produces me, even if somebody doesn’t, doesn’t have that worldview. The idea that it presents for anyone is that weaknesses and strengths might be right next to each other on a continuum, that maybe it’s circular in some way rather than a, you know, rather than a flat continuum. And so that some of those things in you that you perceive as weaknesses are actually just one click away from being strengths.
And that just somehow brings us full circle back to back to our daughter who I think is trying to beat like beat The beat the weaknesses out of her, rather than to nurture them into strengths and Your insight, I think has been brilliant about that. that some of these things that she gets pulled to that she thinks that the great distractions of a life are actually the things she’s supposed to be focusing on. And so I think that’s a good place to actually wrap this. It’s always delightful to have you on Anna. And I think we should do more of it. While I’m being suggested that we should do more of it. And, and I’m really being open to that to embracing it. Or you have literally never asked to be on this podcast, I think you would never even you would not be you would not be you and even think to ask to be, and that maybe that’s one of the reasons that it’s such a pleasure for people to be able to, to have you on. I want I just want to do more of this, we’ll see we’ll see what time allows for in your schedule. But it’s, it’s really a pleasure to just have these conversations, just as we normally would. But now in a way that that I can share a little of the little of what’s us. So thank you for taking the time to do this. I look forward to doing this again, you know, much sooner than before. And I thank you for sacrificing some of your day to be part of this conversation and support me on the What’s Essential podcast
Anna McKeown
It is a true pleasure and the privilege.
