21. Anna McKeown on The Perks of Being Unavailable

Speakers

Greg McKeown, Anna McKeown

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Transcript

Greg McKeown   

Ladies and gentlemen, Essentialist, one and all. Here we are, again, I am your host, Greg McKeown. And this is, for the first time, the What’s Essential podcast. Just a few months ago, we decided to launch a podcast, it was in the middle of it was in the middle of lockdown. And we literally couldn’t even buy the recording equipment that we needed. We couldn’t use the Wheelhouse offices where we’d designed and intended to create the show. But we felt we needed to do it anyway, we felt that the circumstances were calling it forward, because perhaps at no other time, in it, um, lifetime, was the message of focusing on what was essential, more needed. And so we started just with nothing. I mean, we launched a new newsletter on LinkedIn platform. And we started with zero. And it’s been amazing in just a few weeks to see that’s up to, you know, 17,000 followers now, which is for something like that, and amazing growth. And we’ve seen the podcast subscribers just continue to grow again and again week after week. It has been a thrilling thing and exciting to see. It’s been a thrilling thing exciting to see this growth, this, this transformation. And I just wanted to begin this episode by saying thank you for being there with me from the very beginning. And, and building this and communicating back sharing questions, feedback, what’s working and what’s not working, what you love, your own stories. Indeed, some of your stories that have been shared with me have gone on to become not only one minute Wednesday newsletter posts, but also whole podcast episodes, the content itself as we had originally imagined, it has changed because this podcast has grown into something with it a different kind of life. It’s become something of and for and by the essentialist tribe, by you know, you. And so at this juncture, because of the this evolution, this learning, it felt completely right, to just give it a new name, it’s a subtle change. It was the Essentialism podcast before, now it’s the What’s Essential podcast. But that’s because of these life changing conversations that we’ve been able to have with listeners like you, people who have been open and vulnerable, to really explore what is essential to them, particularly areas that they may not be investing in sufficiently well, things they know really matter, but somehow slip to second place or even last place. And that has brought an authenticity and a depth to this experience that has definitely surpassed my expectation for this early stage in this endeavor. And so it is in honor of you, the listener and of the compelling experience, it’s been to have a chance to talk together with you that we make this perhaps small, but for me symbolically important shift. This is now the What’s Essential podcast. And it’s what’s essential, because of the power of the impact that you have had in changing and shifting and guiding this experience. Thank you.

And speaking of someone who has been there from the very beginning, and now back by your popular demand, I am joined in this episode, this new inaugural episode by Anna Elizabeth McKeown, a person of talent and exquisite beauty, the most essential person in my life. Anna, welcome back to the podcast.

Anna McKeown     

Thank you. It is a pleasure to be here.

Greg McKeown   

Is it a pleasure to be back here?

Anna McKeown     

Yes, it is. It’s a privilege.

Greg McKeown   

Why so?

Anna McKeown    

Why so? Because I love you. Because I listen to your podcast. And I think the people that you talk to are really insightful and amazing. And to even be included in that group is an honor and a privilege.

Greg McKeown     

You’re like the original essentialist. You’re the person that I come to when I’m trying to wrestle between important tradeoffs. You’re someone who I see as high on the discernment capability.

Anna McKeown     

Hmm. Thank you. I try.

Greg McKeown   

Yeah, well, you do and you succeed. Just recently, in fact, I about a month ago, I’d finished up a big project, a new book, in fact, and I been in some level of monk mode in order to achieve that professional monk mode. And as I was finishing that the pressure was building to jump right from that back into all of the projects and other requests. So that had come along that I’ve been pushing off on the calendar pushing off out of my mind. And right as I was starting to feel that pressure building, you made a suggestion. Can you talk about what the suggestion was and why you made it?

Anna McKeown 

Absolutely. I was noticing what you were just describing, as I looked at our calendar, and I could see these appointments getting pushed off, you were very busy finishing up a book, I think that’s okay for me to share. And that was, how do I put it, I mean, it was, it was pushed out further. So you had another two weeks to intensely work on that and try and finish that. And so all of the appointments that were scheduled for those two weeks got pushed into the next two weeks, and I floated an idea to you that it would be really nice, when this book was finished, which has been an intense process and quite consuming of your writing ram, of your spare moments, it would seep its way into our conversation. And I think that’s okay, because that is what you were working on. And we’re a collaborative bunch. And so that’s how it rolls. But I was looking forward to when you finish the book to have a little bit of space. With COVID, we hadn’t taken a vacation, we have been quarantined, quite by the book, in our home, because while because of where we live, and also, we have to be extra careful, because one of our children received a treatment this summer that partially suppressed her immune system, and that immune system is building back up slowly. So it’s all good, but she’s more vulnerable. So we didn’t travel anywhere. And we just left the house to get groceries and the necessities and I was feeling the effects of that. And I could tell I believe that you were too and that we needed a break, we needed a vacation, and how were we going to have one because all of them had been canceled over the summer. And while the kids had a break from school, you still worked and I still worked essentially but I proposes that we take two weeks off, please can we take two weeks off where you don’t have anything on your calendar, any appointments that you need to be at, where we can take some time to just be, to try to relax. What I envisioned was an opportunity to talk, to have space, to plan and to dream. So not a super productive two weeks, I didn’t want a productive two weeks, I wanted two weeks where you and I could breathe. And we could take a step back from productivity and become productive and another way and that is to get some perspective to look at our future, not just the next year, but what what’s possible in the next decade, that that kind of thinking where it’s not pressured to come up with a strategy or things like that, but rather to just dream.

Greg McKeown 

Of all the words you shared when you were describing the importance of this, the word that stood out to me, is the word you just finished your answer on. It was to dream. To dream is different than to plan. It’s different even than setting goals although eventually that becomes part of it. It’s a chance to really step back, to escape the normal rituals and schedules and plans and imagine what could be. And in order to do that, you need a generous amount of time. It’s not something you can fit into 10 minutes here and five minutes there. You’ve got to try and get into a certain state I think, a really relaxed state. Where you’re not forcing anything, and it’s in that very relaxed state, with not having to run to something on the calendar with not having to feel run off your feet, that that suddenly ideas will come, they’ll come naturally in conversation, they’ll come naturally. Just in the midst of relaxing that something will come. Describe for people listening, what that two weeks actually looked like?

Anna McKeown    

Well, first of all, you had to push off. Unfortunately, some of those appointments that had already been postponed for two weeks, thankfully, I think most of the, the appointments were fine with it.

Greg McKeown     

So I uncommitted a variety of things, risked pushing, messing people around a little bit in order to just try to reclaim some space for this thinking, playing, talking, connecting, listening dreaming. Experience, yeah, stead of emailing reacting doing meeting so that we could have these breakthrough insights.

Anna McKeown     

Yes, and I, I love how you described what you know what, what the goal was. But in practice, it really was that first step, it was just trying to uncommit to everything extra that we possibly could, which is funny when you think about COVID, and how we weren’t leaving the house to take the kids to activities or going to activities ourselves. And yet, there was still plenty to uncommit from especially for you and your calendar. And so I really appreciated you hearing me on that and taking that time off. And in a sense, my argument was, you know, we, we didn’t have a vacation this summer. And can we take that vacation time to clear the space away?

Greg McKeown     

I feel a lot of people listening to this know exactly what you’re describing. In a COVID world, yes, lots of things got shifted out. But they have quickly been filled. And a lot of people have described a sort of sleep, eat, Zoom way of living, where it’s just back to back. And in fact, there’s less natural breaks than they had before. And so they look at their Fitbit at the end of the day, and it’s literally 300 steps, because all they’ve had to do is, you know, go grab some food, and they’re eating Cheetos by the side of each meeting, and they’re just going to the bathroom. And that’s their whole life. In fact, somebody corrected me the other day, they said, No, it’s Zoom, eat, sleep, you’ve got the order wrong, even in that description. So it’s become, for many people, a, an endless flow of meetings  and activities. In a world that’s even more I won’t say integrated, because that implies an organization but really a convergence. This just mash together world where there’s no boundaries anymore, between work, and school and life. And so this, I think, is a reality lots of people can relate to. So talk me through what it was actually like, those two weeks.

Anna McKeown     

So you and I had started something during COVID that has been hugely beneficial to me. And, and you’ve been very positive about it. So I, I have understood that it’s been good for you, too. And that is, we go on a walk every day. You and I tend to do it in the morning. And that just works for us. So we get up and roll out sometimes before the kids are awake. And we go outside and we walk for about an hour and just talk. And it’s interesting, because we started that, and it was a bit sporadic. And the first few times were a bit bumpy. My expectation was definitely different than what the first few times were. And I think it would have been easy to give up and go, Oh, what’s the point? You know, but we continued, and it’s become so valuable to me, and I hope for you.

Greg McKeown 

Well, we started this a few months ago. So this is before the two weeks. And I agree that at first, it was hard to know just quite how to do it. what was this, Is this a walking meeting? Is this something we need to have an agenda for? You know, what is this new thing so what sounds like complete piece of cake just going for a walk and talking could be tricky for people as they start to learn a new mechanism for communication.

Anna McKeown      

Yeah, absolutely.

Greg McKeown     

But what I think started off as being I mean, I would say initiated by you, and something maybe even more for you, has quickly begun something that is really valuable to me, as well. I think of it as about the just the best hour in terms of return on investment. We get out it’s for our fast walking, no specific agenda, other than just connecting, understanding each other what’s going on in each other’s world. It’s a clear purpose as it’s connecting. But its structure is completely fluid. It’s great physically, just, that’s not the primary reason, but it just walking and getting out for a full hour and doing that has genuine physical benefits. It’s great emotionally just to be out without, fortunately, in, in nature. It’s great emotionally just to be talking to be connecting, it’s great for our relationship. It keeps us synced. It’s great for mental health. I mean, I just think that the multiplicity of benefits is it’s I don’t know, it’s a little hard to overstate given that really, it’s quite a simple practice and I think available, potentially to many people.

Anna McKeown 

That’s so nice to hear you say that. I could sing its praises. Yeah, forever. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s not something new and I it’s not something new and I did before COVID and it’s a real I feel like a real blessing of COVID I mean, in looking for gratitude looking for things to be grateful for.

Greg McKeown   

And we’ve now moved it to being really like every day, through the week, and we’re finding that we really need to do it on the weekend as well.

Anna McKeown 

Yeah for us, I think it’s a benefit. Yeah, it’s, we want to do it every day.

Greg McKeown     

It feels like the right adjustment again, for us in order to create space to escape in the most positive sense of that term, so that we can have time to connect and to discern and to get clear on what is going on, what’s happened the previous day, what’s happening today. And it just seems to be the right kind of practice to try to handle this exceedingly uncertain time that we’re living in. What else with that, two weeks of escape, really look like?

Anna McKeown   

Really the beginning of our days didn’t change much, we would have our walk, then we’d have a family gathering, which we do every morning. And like a devotional, and we try and aim for like 15 to 30 minutes with that. But it was always interesting, because the children who are growing up now, I mean, can they really be called children anymore, but the children would really get involved, they had things to say they had opinions to share, and it became a really good time for our family just to connect. We wouldn’t necessarily get super deep, certainly not every day, but I loved that they wanted to engage at all. And that was and is something I cherish.

Greg McKeown 

We schedule now about half an hour for them. And the reason that we schedule half an hour for them is because so often they would go on for an hour. And we weren’t too keen to reduce it. But that was the enthusiasm of the children to talk about every single thing that we were discussing to jump in and share. And we did reflect that this was a great problem to have that that are now we have four children, three of them, teenagers, one of them right up on the edge of that. And so to have them want to be talkative, to share with each other to share their views with us to be able to, to counsel on small things and big things. And some of them the most important things that you can talk about in life. To have that was, you know, continues to be precious continues to be essential. It’s built into the schedule, but to your point, it also means that even in this two week of escape of retreat of space, you’ve got another thing that’s already spoken for and already built in.

Anna McKeown

Yes. So even though we were trying to keep our schedule really free, and it was, it was filled, but it was filled with good things. It was filled with relationship building, you know, just hanging out or chatting or addressing a question or being there for the children. Even though the days were free, they were still full. But that that was okay. Because we were deliberately trying to step back and observe, observe our lives. Observe our culture, but not I mean, that even sounds more focused then than it was I think it was just our conversation, we continually would try to steer the conversation to, to relax, to relaxation, to proactive relaxation.

Greg McKeown 

One of the things that I’ve learned from the experience is that relaxing is a responsibility. That, that we need to learn how to do it, and take it seriously. You know, for overachievers, for driven people, otherwise successful people, they can often feel like the moment they’re relaxing, they’re doing something wrong, they can feel very guilty for that. They can feel like the moment they’re not on a meeting or doing an email or, or out there related activity, that, that they’re just wasting time. It’s a very non essentialist perspective, but it’s one that that is saturated. For many people, that’s the perspective that they have and the burden that they feel. So when it comes to relaxing, relaxing can be quite uncomfortable. And indeed, it can be something that they do not know how to do. But to learn how do you relax? What works for you what works for you and your significant other, what works for your family? How can you learn to really let go and when we say unplug mean it and to create generous, ample space, or what feels generous and ample to be able to just be and then in that more relaxed state see how the world looks. See how your life looks See what ideas will come to you see what inspiration can flow to you. I think that’s one of my most important takeaways from taking that two weeks.

Anna McKeown 

I agree. And I think it was interesting for me to realize that I didn’t always know how to relax, I didn’t know what would be relaxing, you know, sometimes, sometimes I’ll watch a TV program and I come away from it feeling less relaxed. And, and that’s something I had to observe to even become aware of. And, and so it was interesting in our deliberate effort to relax to, to, at times face the reality that I wasn’t really great at self-care. And so, I needed to figure out what self-care looked like for me, and that looked like walks with you work. And not talking about work.

Greg McKeown 

And by not about work, it’s not just my work, but just about our work responsibilities, either of us, it’s just, we’re not here to do that. We’re just here, to chat to relax, to go wherever the conversation goes. These two weeks that we spent trying to carve out a little extra time was for me personally, Anna, like becoming an essentialist again. I remember saying, I feel like, I’ve got my life back. And that’s the type of thing I hear other people say when they email me or they, they reach out to me to say they’ve read Essentialism. And it’s had an impact for them. They got their life back. And I felt like that I suddenly remembered what it is to hold each new possible commitment, gently, but individually and weigh it up and look at it carefully. Should I do this thing? Is this the right use of this time? Is this more important than creating space to relax and explore and dream. And it was such an empowering experience that I actually tried to extend it basically for another two weeks. And it wasn’t that we weren’t doing anything. But it was that we were being much more selective, even then, we previously been, I should say, I’d previously been.

Anna McKeown 

Yeah, I think what happened is that because our vacation quote, unquote, wasn’t us traveling somewhere having an agenda, filling it full of wonderful experiences. But rather, we took a look at our lives, it was a it was a two-week, step back. Okay, when we go back to life are, we going to do it like we did it before this two weeks? And if we aren’t going to do it, like we did it before this these two weeks why not? What’s changing? What do we want to keep? I mean, it was it was really unique in that it gave us the space to kind of go, Okay, why was I doing that thing before? And is that really serving anyone? You know, is this worth the time investment, because, man, it’s all about time. It’s all about time, isn’t it? The vacation for our family tends to be, let’s go make a memory. And you only get a certain amount of time every year to go and make these family memories. But this year with COVID, that became a lot smaller, like what the options were to do for a vacation or a break meant we actually could step back and have a very different experience than what we would normally have and, and have the space to look at our lives, it felt very luxurious. And I came away feeling closer to you. I feel like COVID has kind of provided that.

Greg McKeown 

One of the things that what you’re saying makes me think of is this, in order to have focus, we need escape to focus.

Anna McKeown     

Yes.

Greg McKeown     

And when I say focus, I don’t mean simply picking a question or possibility and thinking about it obsessively. I mean, creating the space to explore 100 questions and possibilities. You know, an essentialist focuses, the way our eyes focus, not by fixating on something but by constantly adjusting and adapting to the field of vision. And that’s what creating space is really about.

Anna McKeown     

Yes, and I think exhaustion is a real hazard in our day and age.  I’ve definitely felt it deep down to my bones, you know, at various times in my life, and, and it’s a real thing, and it can really inhibit our ability to have perspective. And so this week or two that we were deliberately trying to create this space is an interrupt to exhaustion, if it’s just becoming the norm it’s a way to, to look at your life and see it a little bit more objectively. I mean, I realized that there are certain things that I, I didn’t even know what to do. I mean, you challenged me before this two weeks, but you challenged me to, to make a list of the things that spark joy basically, activities that spark joy for me, and I was surprised by what those things were and how I could incorporate them more in my life but totally didn’t because simply I wasn’t aware of, of what s  parked joy in my life. I hadn’t taken time to step back and go What are the things that that fuel me and that that give me energy and that are therapeutic or energizing or just fun or restorative.

Greg McKeown   

Well, I know that in COVID times, one of the things that that I did on my side to make sure there was a boundary was saying, okay, five o’clock, that the time it ends, whatever else is going on, and I try and walk out of the office at that moment and announce to the family, okay, it’s 501, it’s 459, it’s five o’clock, nice and loud, gives me an excuse to stop, again, an excuse to escape the endless cycle that these times seem to produce for people.

And what I found for you is that, really, we need the same sort of excuse. Because there’s, there’s never a moment at which you have done everything that you could possibly do. There’s, there’s never a point at which the things that are pulling on you, things that matter to you, or to somebody that matters to you, is all finished.

Anna McKeown   

Oh yeah I’m so guilty of that totally. And I and I might point out that those two examples that we just gave of making a list of things that bring joy and walking out of the office at a certain time at five o’clock, and that the both of those came from your podcast.

Greg McKeown 

That’s right.

Anna McKeown  

Those were insights from people that you interviewed. Thank you, Rachel Hollis, and

Greg McKeown     

Ben Bergeron. Yeah, these are examples where we have literally just been learning ourselves from these conversations. And there’s nothing I like more. It’s just the most, just that happiest thing of my life, you know, professionally to discover someone. Well, it’s probably not the right way to say it. But out essentializing me, I mean, I just love it. Somebody who says here is something I’m doing, and I find myself going, Oh, my goodness, I’m not doing that. That’s such a great idea. In fact, it just happened to me today I did an interview with the CEO of Uncharted. It’s an episode this upcoming, this is a preview. But this is this is the CEO who read Essentialism years ago. And then as he discovered that he was just this completely my words a bit of a workaholic, forcing, getting things done as an entrepreneur. And he reads Essentialism and realize it feels quite, you know, convicted. Then, as the years go by, as he changes himself, he starts to explore what might it look like in in his organization. And he makes the transition that I think many people want to make. But he’s done it really quite successfully. He got everybody in his team to read Essentialism, and then as part of that he explored Well, there’s other people that are that are working four-day work weeks. And so he designed a full experiment for the whole company to see could we make this transition. And the short of it is that they both experimented with it, and now have actually done it. So now people work 80% of the time they used to before, get 100% of what they got done before in terms of quantity and quality. And get paid the full amount as well, but they’re actually just doing the 32 hours.

Anna McKeown     

I love that, I love that story.

Greg McKeown     

Also on the podcast episode with BJ Fogg where he identifies that as his goal, and then uses his brilliant insights from tiny habits to make that happen. Real  time we get to see his behind the curtains process for designing something new habitually. And then he emailed me later to say that he had had his first full three-day unplugged experience. And then I heard on somebody else’s podcast where I was being interviewed that he’s carried on doing it. When I hear stories like that, I am inspired again. And it’s really been a genuine experiment with Essentialism beyond what I’d originally written in the book, to be able to now be living and experimenting again but now with a much bigger community. I feel like what I’m learning myself is that Essentialism can be a lifestyle, that it’s an ongoing journey. Of course, it’s day in and day out. And it’s a disciplined pursuit, but it can be full of joy. And it’s about crafting and designing a life that you want to live, instead of just doing it the way that we’ve been told it has to be.

Anna McKeown 

If the theme for today is escape, what was that quote that you have already said in the podcast about we need to escape focus

Greg McKeown   

The quote is, in order to have focus, we need to escape to focus.

Anna McKeown 

Thank you. So if the theme today is escape, I love that quote. And what it means to me how I apply it to my life, is that I need space to get perspective where I’m making the decisions that are based on discernment, and not reactivity, so that when I’m in the midst of the craziness of life and the reactivity of life, there is a chance for those decisions that I made in that space, to come back to me to tap on me and go, remember me, don’t forget me. Remember that decision you made, this is the time to apply it. This is the moment that this is going to positively affect your life. That’s why you made the decision then.

Greg McKeown 

Here is the paradox is the faster and busier things get, the more we need to build thinking time into our schedule. And the noisier things get, the more we need to build quiet reflective space, so that we can truly focus. And really, I think that is part of what this principle of escape is also about is not missing life. When you’re so from one thing to the next, in an absolutely endless flow, like our life is a factory system. And all we’re trying to do is get more emails out of the factory, and more things ordered, and more tasks crossed off a to do list and that that is life. It’s an endless flow, almost literally, from the moment we wake up to the moment we go to sleep, it’s just a flow of stuff and we miss human moments.

Anna McKeown  

What’s coming to my mind is the pull of parenthood, and how there are times and seasons where this will feel impossible.  And so I guess I want to be sensitive to those whose lives are constantly being interrupted by the amazing children that they’re trying to raise into good and decent human beings. My takeaway is, is that if this space is going to be interrupted, because it will, that it is my desire for it not to be interrupted by anything that isn’t going to build someone else. It’s very easy as a mom or dad to prioritize serving children and giving our lives to that and I think that actually is a worthy desire. And it creates a strength that is unique to giving your life in helping someone else. I think I need to be careful about the things that I think are in that pursuit that I think are serving my children that I think are, are worthy, and that might actually not be necessary at all. Because before you know it, I mean, you, you start out with a completely dependent human and baby, and you’re providing absolutely everything for them, and you have to be on top of their development to be able to step back at the appropriate times and allow them to step up. And that takes awareness and it takes courage and, and it is easy, I think to run ourselves into the ground as parents without realizing that it actually wasn’t necessary.

Greg McKeown     

What you’re saying is that applying this principle of escape is different at different seasons of life. And you’re trying to be careful and compassionate about those people that are listening to this at those various times. There were times in our lives where the children were younger, and we simply could not have gone for an hour on our own.

Anna McKeown 

Yeah, not possibly without childcare.

Greg McKeown 

So there were times we really couldn’t have afforded that anyway. So it just wasn’t practical in so many levels. And so you’re wanting to make sure that as people listen to this, they’re not being filled with guilt or frustration, when they can’t apply it in the way we currently are able to apply it and are currently experimenting with it. But that nevertheless, as life progresses, you keep trying to come back to a principle which is true, which is that escape, to think to relax, to talk, to dream, to unplug, is a true principle and will have relevance at every point in your life, even though the application of necessity has to be different.

Anna McKeown   

Yes. See, you’re such a good listener.

Greg McKeown     

On that beautiful moment, I will say thank you to this beautiful guest. There is in every conversation that you and I have a spirit of thoughtfulness, of calm, of trying to weigh each word of, of not being hasty to say something that’s bombastic, but to try and see the, the complexity and, and the compassion that’s necessary to, to wrestle with the life of people, and of changing realities, most commonly for us, each other and, and for our children, but also for extended family and of course, now in this conversation for this community of, of essentialist, who we who we care about, and we feel connected to, and more connected now because of this podcast than ever before. You know, I’m now speaking for myself, not trying to restate for you, Anna, but, but I want the people listening to this to know that I really think of you and see you. And I hear from many, many of you. So it’s not this impersonal, disconnected thing. You know, your lives matter to me, and they just matter completely independent of whether they matter to me, the work of your life, the mission of your life matters. And it’s because it matters. It’s because that’s so essential. That creating space to explore is so vital. That space to escape is so valuable. It’s a bit like a slingshot that you have to create time to escape and to reflect in order to then be able to leap forward and shoot forward. In fact, I would say this, that it’s been because of that month of relative disconnection, or relative unplugging, and a different pace of life, that now as I come back to the podcast. It’s time to, to, to call it what it really is, to name more precisely what this has become. It’s a What’s Essential podcast because it’s  about you, about the listener, about how to help you to figure out what’s essential in your life. It’s designed now around you and, and that is the primary focus of this. An d so, as always, Anna, it’s my genuine pleasure to talk to you. It’s an honor to me and maybe slightly vulnerable to share you and to share these thoughts and the weight that I put on these thoughts, words with other people. But I also think it’s a gift to anyone who has, you know, ears to hear. Let’s say it that way. So thank you for being on the What’s Essential podcast.

Anna McKeown     

Thank you, my dear. It’s a privilege