Speakers
Greg McKeown, Clay Drinko
Greg McKeown
My guest today is Clay Drinko. He’s an educator and author of Play Your Way to Sane, and also a contributor to life hack Psychology Today, where he writes about the intersection between improv science and also the everyday in the blog, playful way to sane. He’s a teacher, he’s a trainer. He’s the founder of English arts and drama programs all over the Greater New York area, including for the New York City Department of Education. He’s earned his PhD in drama and theatre studies from Tufts University to master’s degrees in performance studies and adolescent urban education from LIU and NYU. He’s originally from the Midwest, but now resides in Hudson Valley, which is a couple of hours north of New York, with his husband Harris and their daughter, Ella. You can find Clay at playyourwaysane.com on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter at play your way sing. And on LinkedIn at Clay Drinko, that’s C L A Y D R I N K O. Clay Drinko, welcome to the What’s Essential podcast
Clay Drinko
Thank you so much for having me. I’m really thrilled to be here. Because there’s, I think, really interesting parallels between both of our works and I love your books and so thank you for having me.
Greg McKeown
It’s a pleasure. And, and I mean, just let’s just get to the subject of play at hand because it was one of my findings in my research originally for essentialism, that non essentialist tended to think that play was trivial. that play was an unproductive waste of time. Whereas essentialists held the assumption that play was essential in and of itself, that they use to play to spark exploration and innovation. And there’s so much data to support this. I’m thinking now of Stuart Brown, founder of the National Institute for play, who studied what he calls play histories of some 6000 people and concluded that play has the power to significantly improve everything from personal health, to relationships to education, to an organization’s ability to innovate, play, he puts it this way leads to brain plasticity, adaptability and creativity, or more succinctly, nothing fires up the brain, like, play your thoughts.
Clay Drinko
I fully agree. And I love his work. I love his book play. I have come to this realization, though, through my experience as an actor and as an improviser, and then as an improv researcher. I sort of stumbled on to improv not really knowing what it was. And you know, I was in good company, because there’s a lot of people who, you know, don’t really know what it what it is. And once I really got the rules of improv, and I started really meshing with my team, I had this experience on stage. And I write about this where I no longer remembered what was happening while I was performing. I was so in the moment, I was so in a flow state. And then looking back on the tapes of those performances, I knew I was watching the best version of myself. And so for me, I think about play always in terms of improv, and I love that improv has these ready made prepackaged principles, right, these rules of the road that can help me when I’m on the stage to really focus on who I’m with and what’s going on, and to tap into that childlike sense of curiosity and wonder. And I love that I can take all these principles into my everyday life and, and bring that into my everyday life too. Because, um, as I write in the book, I’m really guilty of being not playful and an overthinker and a worrier. And just to grown up in my everyday life, and so, you know, taking what I’ve learned about improv, and adapting, it’s my everyday life has been just an absolute game changer for me, and I hope for other people.
Greg McKeown
And, and but you’ve gone beyond that. I mean, you’re saying most people aren’t that familiar with improv and certainly, I would say even those that are, most people haven’t actually experienced it. They haven’t been in a theatrical troupe somewhere, they haven’t gone for, you know, classes in it. You’ve not only had classes in it, I mean, this is your, I mean, this is a pretty rare species. Someone who has actually had, you know, done formal education in an almost entirely informal craft has gone, many of them. How many of you are there out in the wild?
Clay Drinko
There are not a ton of us. I mean, it’s lucky now that there are a lot of people who are doing what’s called what’s called applied improvisation. So there are 1000s of facilitators who are using improv to do all sorts of things right to help doctors, to help scientists communicate better, to help businesses to be more creative. And, and be more flexible. So there’s a lot of people in the field now, but I definitely seem to have carved out a sort of lonely lane for myself where I have all these degrees. And my dissertation, you know, did my dissertation on improv comedy, which, at the time there just wasn’t very much research at all on it. I think I finished my dissertation in 2012. And the dissertation was really answering the question, what is happening to our minds when we’re having that experience that I had on stage when I didn’t remember anything, but it was awesome. And I was really in the zone.
And so at the time, there was mainly just research on musical improv. And so I really cobbled together this theory about what’s happening in improv comedy that’s special. And I traveled to Chicago to research, I took a Keith Johnstone workshop in Berlin, I, you know, I just really dedicated over a year of my life to really digging deep and interviewing some of the heaviest hitters in improv and I boiled it down to focus. So when you’re improvising with other people, you have to pay such close attention to every single detail. Because if you don’t, you’re going to miss something, and it’s going to mess up the scene. And so this hyper focus, which means you’re really, really listening, you’re really watching everything they do. That allows the sort of inner critic to shut off because you can’t do two things at once. Your conscious mind cannot be thinking about, Oh, no, do I look stupid? Oh, what should I say next, it can’t do that and also pay very close attention to what you’re seeing partners are doing. And so for me, that was my takeaway with that with my dissertation, which later became the academic book. But since then, I think the shift in focus is really important. But improv has all these other principles going on. And I that’s why I divided my book into 12 different lessons. I think the focus idea is really important and I try to practice it every day to get out of my head and to be more present and in the moment, but I think it’s also important to work on my listening to take chances to not let mistakes get me down. So I think, you know, I now in my, in my older years, take sort of a broader look at improv. And I think all the principles are important and not, not just this idea of shifting focus. But I do think that’s the most powerful tool that improv gives us is that shift of focus
Greg McKeown
That makes sense to me and is really interesting. My wife, Anna was a music dance theater major. And so our first year of marriage was is was she was the understudy for Belle in the national tour of Beauty and the Beast.
Clay Drinko
Oh, wow.
Greg McKeown
And so I mean, I was just in awe of the whole process of the whole theatrical world of everybody in the cast, but also the crew that the directors, the producers, I was the bottom of the totem pole. Like I was below, literally everyone, but I just was, I’m sure I was the happiest person there because I thought it was all so marvelous and magical, but I was selling plush beasts and roses, you know, it, you know, intermission, but one of the things that she’s taught me about acting is the term yada yada, right, which is just all the noise in your head, that wants to watch you act and critique you acting, instead of just being. It’s that yada yada that that sort of really lack of focus, or particularly, I think you’re right in saying listening, this lack of listening and presence that leads people to overact. To try too hard instead of just to be to be in the moment. And so I think that is a it’s a curious element of of what you’re saying you have to be fully present. For people listening to this, you know, this is all very well, this may even be really interesting. But there’s still probably quite a big gap between what we’re talking about and anything in their life right now. You’re saying there’s a whole series of facilitators out there who are applying improv in actual workshops in sessions with teams? Do you do that kind of work as well
Clay Drinko
I do a bit. Yes, yes. I’ve done workshops for corporations. I’ve done a lot in education. I definitely do. And I enjoy that process of taking everything I know about improv and then applying it to a specific problem because I, you know, know, some of the studies that have come out that show improv helps people deal with uncertainty better or be more comfortable with uncertainty, it helps lower social anxiety. And, and it definitely helps with ideation, with divergent thinking. So So yeah, I definitely do.
Greg McKeown
So. To me, there’s this, you know, there’s improv, as you’ve described it, and what it you know, the experience you had with it, there’s these outputs, these, these concepts for what it the benefits that can come from it. But there’s still this missing gap in between. Tell me about a time you have worked with a team and what you did with improv. Set the scene for me?
Clay Drinko
Yeah, well, I think if I can go back a little bit, I think what might bridge the gap a little bit is, is my own experience. I think, after I, you know, my academic book was published, and I was the so-called sort of improv expert. And I learned about focus and how it helps people be in the moment, I was really struggling in my real life, like I wasn’t experiencing any sort of presence or, you know, in the moment, playfulness, joy, I was such an overthinker, I, you know, was so angry, and I just was really struggling. And so I think, you know, this new book Play Your Way Sane is really, it really comes out of that it’s that I’m not so interested in, I want everyone in the world to take an improv class, it was, okay, I know this to be true about improv. And I know that it comes from these improv principles, I have to now adapt this to my everyday life and create ways that I can find playfulness, and joy and connection, not only on stage, but I have to be able to find this in my everyday life, you know,
Greg McKeown
You want to do precisely what I’m asking you now to explain, which is, how do you go from experiencing this in one moment in one’s very specific setting and actually, you know, filter that into so that you can have more of that sensation of being present, of being more creative, living in play in the experience of your life, rather than it being a, an adjacency?
Clay Drinko
Yeah, and I do the same thing when I work with a team, right? I and I did the same thing. When I was teaching middle and high school students in New York City, right, I look at, you know, what, what’s the obstacle, like what am I struggling with? And when I applied improv principles to my classroom, I really boiled it all down to, I need to really be able to measure and then adjust students listening, their openness and their ability to collaborate with each other.
So I’ve really boiled it down to those three different things. And then I would measure in each class, I would I would really think about what are examples of when this particular cohort is listening or not listening? Or, you know, are they open to each other’s ideas or do they shut each other’s ideas down? And then what does the collaboration look like, right can they build off each other’s ideas or not? And then I would intervene appropriately, right. So for one class, I might really focus on listening, that might be an improv game, it might not. There’s a ton of different ways you can work on listening, right? So I always think more in terms of what are the principles, right, what are what are the different things that I’m measuring, and then I borrow from everywhere to then try to improve those.
Greg McKeown
So you’re, you’re being purpose driven about it. You’ve got, you’ve got a capability you’re trying to develop? Let’s take listening, for example. You’re trying to create a culture of listening in the classroom between a group of people now when you say measure it, was it just observation or were you using actually measurement tools for their listening quotient, let’s say?
Clay Drinko
I would definitely do qualitative I would win I was using in the classroom, I would draw two lines on a piece of paper, the first section was listening. second session section was openness. And the last one is collaboration. And I would just take those sorts of qualitative notes of, you know, this happened, and then this and then this. And then after class, I could step back, read over it, process it, look for patterns, and then figure out, you know, and teachers do this all the time, right, teachers have to decide, what’s the biggest thing I need to work on tomorrow and how am I going to do that?
Greg McKeown
Why did you choose those three areas? What led you to narrow in on those skills amidst any of the characteristics, one could emphasize in a classroom setting?
Clay Drinko
Well, at the time, we were really focused on common core standards and so I knew what was expected, you know, of my classroom, and my students from the state, and from my principal, and from my assistant principal. You know, I really thought about what does that classroom look like that everyone seems to agree looks like a classroom that’s really effective? And then I, you know, and then I can take what I know about improv, and what makes that sort of improvised collaboration really effective, sort of marry the two. And so for me, it’s really, that I was thinking about what that ideal classroom environment look like. And for me, that’s me stepping back and my students being able to work in groups by themselves. So what does that require? They have to be able to listen to each other, right? Like you cannot, you can’t do any of the things in sort of a functional classroom if people aren’t listening. Right. So that for me was a no brainer.
Greg McKeown
When you say, you know, obviously, you can’t have a functional team that isn’t listening to each other. Just be Captain Obvious for a moment. Help paint a picture for me as to why that is the case. What Why can’t it work? if people aren’t listening?
Clay Drinko
Yeah, this again, comes from my improv background and my improv research, right. Like, I know how important listening you is just can’t take it out of the equation. And it’s because I think one of the main reasons I think about is this concept of creative suppression, or creative mortification. So creative suppression is that experience where maybe somebody on a team has an idea and then if nobody sort of picks up on it, or somebody shoots it down right away, or nobody really, you know, acknowledges that that was an idea, right? No listening was really shown. And so that can be really tough for certain individuals, and they might shut down. So for the rest of the meeting, they might be like, you know what, I’m not gonna say anything else, right? Like I tried, it didn’t go well. And I’m done. And so I really noticed that and was concerned about that as a teacher, because my role then becomes really important. How do I show my students that I’m truly hearing everything that they say, and how can I model that and then how can I teach it? And for me, the best example is the improv exercise called a Yes And, and I would drill this with my students and see a huge difference. And I do the same thing with any team that I work with. And so I say, Yes, I repeat what you said. And then I can add on to it right, in some way. So I might say, you know, that sounds really interesting. I might ask a question. Like, what role does listening play in this idea of understanding? Right? And so just this Act of, for me, the the listening part, is that me stopping? And me repeating what you said, right?
Repeating what someone says, is a really powerful way to show I am listening to you, right, I heard what you said, and I might have some questions about it, or, you know, I might want to know more
Greg McKeown
You’re saying that even where they’re not even having to go deeper and, and try to understand what’s beyond the words, even where you could get students to repeat what they’d heard. So that they were listening, even at, at sort of, let’s say, level one listening, and then build on it from there. And this idea, it, it helped them to just even know, they needed to tune in, that their job was, in fact, to be in an active listening mode. That’s what I hear you saying?
Clay Drinko
Yes. Because I feel like, as a society, sometimes it’s not really valued, or appreciated, that we’re just trying to really understand, like, let me get this straight, like, do I have what you’re saying, right, is when my students would start to do that it would really reduce the amount of conflict and misunderstandings in the classroom. Right, if I have to repeat what you said, it’s going to be really clear if I have something wrong, if I do not repeat what you said. And I just say whatever I’m going to say that a lot of times can be more of a conflict, right? Because I miss something and no one knows what I missed. And so for me, it’s just about making those things really clear, especially in the beginning when it’s being taught.
Greg McKeown
I hate to be so blunt about this, but I basically think that the vast majority of people are rubbish listeners, for sure. And, and I don’t mean it’s that people don’t listen at all. It’s that I imagine and believe, a great deal about the principle that there’s a lot of richness to it. There’s an enormous range of capability that’s possible, so that you could be you know, you could be an above average listener and still be bad because there’s so much greatness that’s possible that you can become a good listener, a great listener, exceptional listener, then a powerful listener, so that you can really start to understand people fast because you’re fully here I find that deep listening is, is the closest I come in my life to being in a meditative state. That when I’m in deep listening mode, it’s a very peaceful experience, because all of the noise that’s otherwise in my head, all of the to dues all of the work is completely puts aside, that agenda is shelved. And I can live entirely in somebody else’s experiences, and in their frame of reference. So I find it, I find it genuinely enjoyable, I find it quite cathartic. But I also have learned over these years working on this, really over the last 20 years trying to study deep listening and deep empathy and understanding techniques and principles, that there’s a, there’s a vast range, that’s possible. And the highest value is when you’re going not, you know, from good to great in this space is much more valuable than even going from bad to good. And so that’s where the 10x influence exists. And, and then of course, if you can get a hole in the, in your case, classroom doing it, or a whole family doing it, or a whole business team doing it, where you have a culture of deep listening. It’s not just a nice interpersonal, Oh, that makes me feel good type thing, nothing wrong with that benefit in and of itself. But it’s also the key to unlocking the goal of the collaboration and innovation and the action, the work that needs to be done.
Clay Drinko
It changes everything. You know, my experience, taking everything I knew about improv and applying it to my everyday life. And I continue to do that to this day, it’s truly allowed me to be able to still be in a happy and healthy marriage. You know, I’ve been with my husband for eight years, we now have two kids. And you know, at the beginning, you know, I was not a great boyfriend, I was not a great husband in many ways, right? Because I can be really defensive, I hear things that he’s not really saying, right. And I think a lot of people do this to a certain extent.
Greg McKeown
Sure.
Clay Drinko
So for me this deep listening, and trying to understand what is his reality? What’s he really saying, has changed everything for me, and it’s really lifted a weight off of me so I don’t need to be defensive, right? Or at least not right away, right? I need to figure out, what are you really saying? And I need to ask clarifying questions. And I need to repeat back what he said and really process it and ask questions. And it truly has changed everything.
Greg McKeown
Recently, I put out a question on social media. I said, think of a time when you have felt misunderstood. In one word, what did That feel like and I was really surprised at the intensity of the answers. I’m gonna read some of them here. Okay annoying. Fight poison with poison, confusing, embarrassing, gut wrenching, unjust, isolating, frustrating, debilitating, excluded, cramped, gutted, fearful, disheartening, suffocating, betrayed, outcast, unworthy, impatience, undervalued, draining, hurt, humbled, defeating, effortful, depressed, terrifying, like, those are some of the answers just read straight off. Yeah, those are stronger, it’s hard to come up with stronger words than that in terms of a negative experience. And yet, my sense is that maybe we don’t all spend a lot of our life in that state with other people. But that because people just think they’re better at listening and understanding than they are, a lot of us are in practice spending a great deal of our life not feeling very understood. And so, of course, therefore, feeling somewhat misunderstood. And I think it’s the cause of a lot of a lot of other damage and costs, the poor relationships down, and therefore, of course, anything we’re trying to do with other people, whether it’s build a school, great classroom culture, or a great, great entrepreneurial venture or a family, all of this seems to be quickly undermined if people feel misunderstood.
Clay Drinko
I always say that, you know, people want to be truly seen, truly heard. And if those things are happening, they feel valued. So to me that’s why 20 years later, after stumbling into that improv audition, you know, I’m still in it, like, I am still taking these principles and applying them to life, because I think that’s what it all boils down to. And I see it in my marriage. And I see it in my conversations with people, you know, 20 years ago, I was not a good friend, right? I just didn’t have the tools or you know, I don’t know what it was. But through improv, I have been able to truly see people and hear them not all the time. But when I get it right, and make them feel valued. And in exchange, I am much more likely to have them reciprocate, right. Right, and it will improve our whole dynamic. And that’s what playaway saying is all about is like, you can do all these games all by yourself, right? You don’t have to tell anyone, you don’t have to take an improv class. And that’s what I’ve done. I just sort of play these games in my head. And it’s made such a powerful impact on my life.
Greg McKeown
Give me a game that I can play in my head, that would help me to listen better, listen deeply, in the way that we’ve been describing.
Clay Drinko
There is an exercise called since we’re talking about teaching, it’s called Teach Me Sensei, and you are really imagining that whoever it is you’re talking to is very wise, right? They know these amazing things, and they are a teacher. And so you are really listening for a nugget of from what they’re saying. That is powerful, then is is interesting, right? And for me, this is really important because sometimes I talk to people and I’m like, I’m making assumptions, right? Oh, boy, I’m not going to learn anything small talk. I’m not into it. Right? And if I’m thinking that that’s exactly what I’m going to get out of the conversation, but when I just flip and really, you know, again, talk about focus when I really focus on what’s amazing about what they’re saying. I can always find something right if I’m being playful if I’m being curious if I have that improv spirit. I love that example.
Greg McKeown
I love that example. That’s something we can immediately do, the next person we talk to the next interaction is. It’s not writing them off. Yeah, no, you know, well, it’s one of my kids, you know, I’m just gonna kind of be very selective listening or pretend listening. Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure. No, you’re saying, Teach me Sensei, that you listen as if, oh my goodness I have a sensei here somebody incredibly wise in front of me, you know and listen as if there’s method in any madness that might be on, on show open opening myself increasing the chance that there’ll be an exchange of value and certainly that I’ll have an increase of understanding with them. Give me a little less than I mean another Give me another game to play. I love that first one.
Clay Drinko
And there’s another exercise sort of similar, that’s called hard hitting reporter, where you just pretend that you’re this reporter, right? And you’re really trying to get to, like, what’s the essence of this person’s story. And that sort of helps prevent you from doing what’s one of my bad habits, which is turning every conversation back to me, right? If I’m a hard-hitting reporter, and somebody says something about their job, I need to figure out what’s going on with their job. I do not need to be talking about my job. Because that’s not what the conversation is about.
Greg McKeown
Yeah, the rule of journalism, especially in, you know, in a bygone era is, you know, never become the story that you’re saying, if you take on the role of hard hitting journalist, that it’s always about them, take it back to them, which to me, is consistent with the research on social anxiety, which suggests that we feel greater social anxiety as we turn inward. As we’re focused on ourselves, how do I look? And oh, yes, then as you say, okay, our hands are sweaty hands. Well, now you’re worried about that? What will people think of this, and it creates its own downward spiral. And so if anyone who starts to feel social anxiety, simply tries not to say, Oh, don’t be nervous, because you can’t not do something, you’ll just focus on the thing you’re trying not to do and make more of that aggravate the problem, you focus on them, you will relax. You know, because you’re no longer worried and self-worried. So another great example. It feels to me as we talk about this, first that you had yourself a game changing experience, you experience the world in a completely new and different way the first time did you did improv? And it seems similarly that, that as we go away from this conversation, and utilize these games, that we can start touching the same kind of experience that literally changed the direction of your life.
Clay Drinko
Absolutely, we can, you know, you know, by taking the principles and applying them to our everyday life, you know, why can’t we be more positive? Why can’t we be more collaborative, more open, less defensive, better listeners? And that’s definitely the experience that I’ve had. And so far, many other readers have their way saying I’ve had, which is for me, you know, I’m sure as you know, the most gratifying thing.
Greg McKeown
It’s a real pleasure to be with you here Clay Drinko. Maybe I can just ask one final question, which is, what is the question you hoped I wouldn’t ask?
Clay Drinko
That’s very interesting. I. I never thought that. So I, I think because I really tried to walk the walk of sort of living these improv principles. Right before we started talking. I was very nervous, right. But instead of spiraling, which I’m very good at, by the way, I did some of the breathing exercises that are in my book, I calm myself down. And never let myself imagine any of the questions that you’re going to ask, knowing that you, you know, have great books, you have two great books, you have an amazing podcast, I’ve listened to it. And all I needed to do was to listen to you and respond accordingly and enjoy it. And I told myself three times before we started talking. Just enjoy it. Have fun, have fun, have fun, enjoy it, and I absolutely have so I never let myself think that
Greg McKeown
That’s a that’s a lovely answer and lovely self-disclosure there as well. It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you on the water central podcast, Clay Drinko, co-author of play your way sane. We covered a very particular thread of that book. Of course, you can’t teach a book so it’s a perfectly reasonable thing that we’ve done. Went deep on some innovative, interesting, unusual ways of thinking about how to listen better. And I’m going to immediately apply these improv games and already confident that they will make for great additional skills to put in the listening and understanding toolkit. Thank you so much for being with me.
Clay Drinko
Thank you so much, Greg. This was an absolute blast and an honor
