26. Dana Biberston on Emptiness and the 100-Year Vision

Speakers

Greg McKeown,  Dana Biberston

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Transcript

Greg McKeown    

Dana Biberston, welcome to the What’s Essential podcast.

Dana Biberston     

Thank you, I truly am so grateful and honored to be able to speak with you today.

Greg McKeown     

And why is that, what is it that makes you feel good to be here?

Dana Biberston     

You have had a profound influence in my life. And the work of essentialism truly has played a remarkable role, especially in this last look for the last few years. But I would say even more, essentially, in these last few months during COVID.

Greg McKeown       

Hmm. And tell me, tell me about that story from a few years ago, and then we can move to the last few months. What the impact back then?

Dana Biberston     

So back, then I think it was just helping me get clear on what’s important. And, you know, at the time, it would have been things like, Oh, you know, this week, these are the things that need to get done, I have my husband and I have six children. So, we’re pretty busy with them. We have four that have launched into adulthood, and two teenagers that are going to get ready to here to launch in the next couple of years.

Greg McKeown     

So you’re in a real transition period anyway, right now, very much with what the home dynamic is and what the dynamic is with those children being left in a much quieter home than the one that they were raised in. But this is all right now. Back then you’ve got six children at home, you’ve got you know, the world on your shoulders, you’ve got lots of lots of expectation, demands, burden on your time.

Dana Biberston       

Absolutely. And at the time, my husband was working quite a bit out of town as well. So it really was what is essential, because I’m playing a little bit of mom and dad for majority part of the week, and then switching roles back into okay, now we’re family again, and, and he had his demands on his time, with church responsibilities and other things as well. And in the meantime, the last five of our children were born within about six and a half years. So it’s very quick launching quick moving parts in our family. And about that time, we were moving constantly as well. So it was it was tricky, which comes first, the move the baby, for selling the house, buying a house, which one comes first?

Greg McKeown     

Having gone through some of the things you’re describing myself, it’s easy to put myself in your shoes. But that’s you’ve got three or four different things all happening at the same time that any one of them would leave you stretched too thin. Any one of them would strain you to the edge. How was that experience for you? How did you feel?

Dana Biberston     

I felt just that I think back then it was pre-essentialism. So I really wish you would have written that book back in 2000. That would have been really helpful for me.

Greg McKeown     

I’m sorry, that’s on me, I should have had my act together.

Dana Biberston       

So it was it was really, really tough. And I think there was a lot of survival in that, that time period. And again, pre essentialism. And so I think I’ve let some really essential things go that I really would have helped. I was too busy to get up and start my day. And in just a brief period of time in scripture, you know, it, it shouldn’t have had to take more than 10 seconds, even at that time, but it was just I felt like I was drowning. So I couldn’t take that time. And literally I was you know, I had a baby that, you know, in one of those moves that was the baby came first then selling the house then moving and that baby just wasn’t doing very well because I wasn’t doing well.

Greg McKeown      

You’re describing more than being stretched and being pulled too thin, you’re describing something deeper than that. Total exhaustion, depletion. And what I hear in you when you say it is not surface fatigue, but deep-down death depletion.

Dana Biberston     

Absolutely, to the bone. Literally, you know that my son was failure to thrive. And I didn’t know that was possible, because this was my fourth baby. You just have babies and you feed them, and it just works. And that was my wakeup call it this is not working.

Greg McKeown     

Hmm. What you done before wasn’t working now, at least partially, from what you’re saying from the fact that you were yourself so depleted.

Dana Biberston   

Exactly. Exactly.  

Greg McKeown     

There’s something if we’re not careful, quite inhumane about that period in life where careers are growing, just starting off, income is lower than it can be a bit later down the road. You’ve got all young children. It’s all happening at the same time. It’s not just oh, this is uncomfortable. This is difficult. This is not exhausting. This is it’s it has to change. It has to change. I just want to zero in on that moment in that description. Because you’re describing a place of such mental, emotional, physical and spiritual exhaustion that you couldn’t discern clearly at all.

Dana Biberston     

I was completely depleted to the point where I just you’re just surviving, you know, you don’t even think about thriving and excelling. You just think of how can we make this work? How can we get the family back together, so we’re in the same state and in the same home and get our feet back under us again? And that disconnection was not just in my relationships with, with my kids, with my husband, with the Lord. But I think also truly within myself.

Greg McKeown    

I can just imagine you in that moment of that period where there is so little space for you. And so little space for your relationship with God. That you’re just alone.

Dana Biberston     

Yes. And you feel even more alone with yourself, even when the babies are asleep. And, you know, even if you’re in the same home, that disconnection from God definitely was a disconnect from life, from love from peace and contentment.

Greg McKeown     

What was left for you? What, what’s there when those things are gone or missing or unreachable.

Dana Biberston     

It just feels very dark, it feels very blank. And honestly, you don’t feel a whole lot. There’s not a lot of feeling very numb, empty, would probably be the best word.

Greg McKeown     

Empty. Anyone who would hear your story would relate either from their own experience or just comprehend quickly, why you would be empty and why you would feel that I mean, you are describing emptiness itself.

Dana Biberston 

Yes.

Greg McKeown     

What did you do next?

Dana Biberston     

You know, it took me a while, we ended up moving and that helped to be in the same house. And that brought a lot of security and peace. And as my anxiety came down, I could feel my feet starting to get under me again. And then within I think three years came two more babies and about, oh, four more moves. So, it was it was a lot It wasn’t I thought that was done, you know, and it wasn’t it replayed itself again and again. And eventually, what I learned, what is most essential is that I must have that time with my Heavenly Father on a daily basis, that is most essential. And if I can put that first, then everything else in my day falls into place. It either slips away, or there will be this surprising pocket of time even with six kids and young when they were very young. There would be the surprising pockets of time where all of a sudden, I was it was a gift that well, but what do I have this little bit of time? What do I do? It was it was so miraculous, really.

Greg McKeown   

You’re saying that if you invested a few seconds. And that’s what you said earlier? So I’m clarifying. But even literally a few seconds before you start doing, connecting, what you’re saying praying, reading scripture that that materially changed the experience for the rest of the day. Is that what you’re saying?

Dana Biberston     

Yes. And beyond the day, I think it even changed. Again that trend and that trajectory, it changed my life.

Greg McKeown  

Really?

Dana Biberston 

Completely.

Greg McKeown     

Describe like, did you make a decision one day that you just said the first thing I’m going to do no matter what is this? What was the shift, was it a moment? And every day afterwards you said this is first or How did you get to that place where this was so much of a priority for you?

Dana Biberston     

You know, I think it came a little bit here and a little bit there. So at one time, one of our church leaders said, a challenge, because it’s really easy, I think, to say, you know, tomorrow, I’m going to start this program. And then tomorrow goes along, and you forget and you think that’s right. Next Monday, I’m going to, I’m going to do this next month, next year, you know, it’s always, like, there’s some magical time in the future to really make a change. And one of our church leaders issued a challenge and said, this summer, read every single day. And it was maybe 90 days, so it wasn’t for the rest of your life. It wasn’t for years of time, it was just for the short window, read every day. And I thought, I can do that. I can do that. And I had started and stopped along the road. But this was where I think it really became, I think there’s two instances where it became life changing. This is the first one because once I had done that 30, 60, 90-day period, over the summer, I recognized the power. But I also recognized that it was something I could do. It really was possible to not skip a day or skip a week.

Greg McKeown     

What’s striking to me about this is that well, first, that phrase, I can do this, it was something small enough that you felt it’s possible.

Dana Biberston     

Yes.

Greg McKeown     

And what I’ve observed is that there’s an almost physical thing that happens within people, when they hear an invitation to do something that’s achievable for them. It’s concrete, it’s specific, and they think it’s literally that thought I can do this, I, you know, I might not be able to do everything else that you’re inviting me to do, I might not be able to do everything else I’m reading that other people are doing, but this thing I can do. And the second thing is that I think a lot of people faced in a similar situation as you would see other solutions. They might say, Well, you’ve got to, you’ve got to go out and exercise, you know, exercise, the cure all for everything. And I’m not really knocking that as an answer. But a lot of people would say that kind of thing. Or they would say, well, you need to sit down with your husband to have a different, you know, conversation about how life is going because this is not right, you know that there would be other things they would suggest. And again, I’m not saying that there isn’t a place for these other things. But you’re describing a different path, one I think less people would think of or suggest. And it sounds to me like such a micro change. But what I hear in you, is that doing that first for that 90 days, let’s say it had a bigger effect on you even than you expected?

Dana Biberston   

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because at that point, at the end of those 90 days, it was a summer program. So let’s say about 90 days, I recognized that the blessings are that benefit, that peace that I felt the happiness, the contentment, no going back to the bone, my bones felt full, right, that love came back, it filled my soul. And so because of that, I didn’t ever want to let go. I had known depletion, and I had known fulfillment. And I knew what caused the cause and the effect, and there was no way I was going to go back.

Greg McKeown   

It was so painful before.

Dana Biberston     

So painful. Oh, and I recognized that that pain from before was not anyone else’s fault. Part of it was the experience called life. But the other part was the choices I made in that experience, or the choices I didn’t make created more of a depletion and more of a problem. Whereas making different choices would have been better. And I could recognize that and so therefore, I wasn’t going back.

Greg McKeown     

What I sense in you is that in the empty to the bone period, you didn’t know explicitly why you were so empty. There’s these obvious explanations on the surface. But it wasn’t obvious to you at that moment that if, if you simply change this practice, then things are going to change. That that wasn’t obvious at the time to you.

Dana Biberston     

No, I felt like what seemed the solution was, you know, we need to be in the same house together, we need to be a family, we need, I need help. That would be, you know, I need I need somebody to help me during this this difficult time. And really, that it was kind of the fire in front of my eyes. And really, that was just the smoke, you know, the real issue is getting right within myself. And then there would be enough because I would have access to God’s power in my life. And that can change everything. I remember someone issuing a challenge saying, you know, if you’re having a hard time trying to find this place where you can connect with God and scripture, pray, like ask him about it. Have a conversation with him about it and see what see what the solution is. And I remember in they said, you know, this is this is a prayer that I think he would be happy to answer. And I thought that makes sense.  And so I remember kneeling down and taking that question to the Lord and saying, you know, here’s where I’m at, I get up early, and I go to the gym, but I really want to put the scripture first I really want to send that message that you’re in my most important, even before the gym, but 530 is early and so it kind of council back and forth a little bit. And I could see in my mind that if I would get up a little bit earlier, I could do both. I could do scripture before going to the gym, and before my kids woke up. So that’s what I did. And, and part of that was, you know, I’m tired in the morning. And so if you’ll help me not be tired, I can do this. And so that was part of my routine for quite a long time until I needed to shift my routine again, because of some health situations.

Greg McKeown     

You have what it sounds like not just a habit, but a ritual.

Dana Biberston     

Yes, an important ritual. Life Changing.

Greg McKeown     

Life changing.

Greg McKeown     

This seems like phase one of the conversation that we started the beginning, this was a shift. I’m not saying there has to be an essentialism story beyond what you’ve said, where did essentialism come into your journey?

Dana Biberston     

You know, when I first read it, my mom said you have to read this book. And I read it and I thought wow. Yeah, that’s this is really, I can see how this would be really helpful.

Greg McKeown   

Why do you think you needed to read it?

Dana Biberston     

She said, she talked actually just last night, she said this is the most relevant book. And I think that’s true. It’s relevant to what all of us go through and try to make decisions between our limited time, our limited resources, limited energy, limited creativity, and there’s a lot of limits. And yet we have to make some tough decisions. We don’t get to choose at all. And I think going back to that depletion, that’s one of the things I learned is there are limits. And you need to honor those limits.

Greg McKeown     

Yes, if you don’t honor them, they still win.

Dana Biberston     

They did, they really did.

Greg McKeown   

They still they still come back this relevance that you’re describing I relate to in my own life. I mean, striving to live as an essentialist is a daily, a daily pursuit a daily walk. And I find the limit you’re describing exceedingly frustration that there’s always more than can possibly be done. And even as I personally have gone on the journey and tried to be more and more selective about what is essential. I’m still amazed at how many really important and essential things there are in life.

Dana Biberston     

Absolutely. And I think you’re right, when you say that was kind of phase one of essentialism. I would say the next there’s probably two other impasses where essentialism really had a profound influence in my life. And I would say the biggest one what well, actually, the first one will go in chronological order cause I think they’re both big. The first one was last summer; I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And yeah, it was shocking. I had I have a master’s degree in health, taught health education classes. Before I had children, I went to the gym. You know, tried to be a healthy person and here I am. You know, not even 50 and get this surprising diagnosis. And so at that point, it really, I really had to stop and say what is essential, and going to the gym at 530 was no longer essential. Sleep became really essential, trying to figure out which path I want to take in terms of treatment. And, you know, that became essential. Spending time with my children and taking the time to be happy and present with them, even through a difficult emotional time, that was essential. And so, a lot of things that I thought was essential pre-diagnosis, were really insignificant. But that scripture was still essential, even more so. Because I had important decisions to make. And I, they were bigger than me. And I needed to be able to know that no matter which decision I made, that I knew I was doing the right thing for me.

Greg McKeown   

Something that I’m reminded of here from the book essentialism is that the highest priority is to protect our ability to prioritize. And that’s what I think you’re describing is the thing that remained, the essential thing that remained was the practice that helped you with discernment. To be able to even look at the rest of the options you have and the rest of the tradeoffs in this impossible in a way just unimaginable set of decisions you’re now being faced with. You say, well look, that’s hard enough. I don’t want to make it harder by not doing the thing that I know, based on experience helps me to see clearly.

Dana Biberston     

And it really was, you know, it was time and I ended up choosing to, you know, have the cancer surgically removed. And, and so and I’ve actually, I’ve had my post two-year mark, and my tests are perfect and beautiful. And no callbacks. And so I’m absolutely thrilled and, and very happy.

Greg    

Congratulations, well done.

Dana Biberston     

Thank you, thank you, I feel extremely blessed. But part of that I think goes into the second part of it essentialism that, in my opinion, is the diamond of essentialism. And I think it is this hundred-year vision. And here’s why. I knew that I had to I had my dad’s mother passed away from stomach cancer when he was eight. And my, my mom’s grandmother passed away from breast cancer when her son was maybe 12. So pre, you know, very young, young family. And so knowing that hundred year history, and that I had two ancestors to two grandmothers that didn’t get to raise their children. They didn’t get to finish that. Knowing that story helped me understand that If it’s my turn to go, we all have an exit plan. You know, there’s always an exit out of this life, nobody gets to stay. So if it’s my turn to go, and my children still need to be reared. I’m in good company. But if it’s my turn that I get to stay, then how precious is life, even the hard days. And you know, going back to those depleting days with my young baby. And my young children, I look back on that time and I think what a gift what a gift that you can live through those difficult dark times. Because life is a gift I learned about my great grandmother that I never met who passed away before I was born. And my grandmother’s grandmother, who also I never met. And because of taking that time to really dive into that hundred-year legacy that you talk about in the book. I recognize that I have a lot more strength that came from my mother that came from her mother that came from her mother that came from her mother. And that changes everything.

Greg McKeown     

What does it change?

Dana Biberston    

To me it gives perspective on what’s really essential. And what’s really essential is to make those connections in our family past present in a way that the future is that connection continues on.

Greg McKeown     

What you’re saying is that what’s essential is your part in a big intergenerational play?

Dana Biberston     

Yes, absolutely. It’s so amazing to think of, I’ll tell you something that a byproduct that came from that experience that I didn’t anticipate. So as I’m reading this story, I can see how important this gospel was to my grandmother. And one of her children married somebody who wasn’t belonging to the same church. And so that was devastating to my grandmother. And I could see how there was a rift in that relationship. And as I’m going through the story, and deep diving, I get to, I’m able to discern that there’s something really important that’s not written on the pages. And that is that that sweet aunt that married into this family, she brought a tremendous amount of love that our family needed, and it would have been absent, had she not joined our family. So what might have seen as you know, maybe a difficult, difficult situation, I was able to call that aunt and thank her for and I said, I’m sure it wasn’t easy to join, you know, to be a part of this family. And she said, No, no, it wasn’t. But I said, I just want you to know how much I appreciate you, and how grateful I am because you brought so much love that our family really needed. I wouldn’t have known without having that time looking back.

Greg McKeown     

That’s so important, what you just described, and it expresses the point behind the hundred-year visioning exercise. It was an insight that came when people would ask me, look, what’s the best way to figure out what’s essential? And, I mean, I had written a whole book, I thought on that question. So, it wasn’t entirely comforting that people even after reading the book would still be asking that question. And I still thought, well, this thing’s relevant in the book, but it led me to keep pushing for better answers. And, you know, further techniques, strategies for doing it. And this idea of the hundred-year vision, meaning look at your life, from 100 years in the past, and 100 years in the future. So really, just to be technical, it’s like a 200-year vision. But that’s not that doesn’t have quite the same elegance about it. So in that exercise, I was on a plane when I first really did this. In this way, I pulled up like an Excel document, and wrote down every year from the year I was doing it back 100 years. So that’s 100, you know, 100 lines in the document. Wow. And then I then I went 100 years forward. So now I’m looking at literally 200 years of history, dates in the first column. And then I said, Okay, well, you know, I am this age today, and you can go, I can now put my age all the way back to when I’m born and I can follow it through all the way to approximately when I’m going to die. Okay, well, that’s a long time before 100 years into the future. So you can see visually, you know, you’re not making it 100 years from now that that’s, you know, way before you get to that point, you’re gone. Then I did it with each of my children. And, and I realized 100 years from now they’re gone. You know, like it’s not even this hundred-year vision that and then I said well, what about grandchildren now? They’re gone. Yeah, and even your great grandchildren are almost, you know, well on their way out. I mean 100 years is so long in terms of generations. And I started to see how appallingly bad my memory is, once you start looking at it with anything like a really long term vision, not five years of the future 10 years, that’s normally a lot longer term thinking than most of us are doing, as we react, email, the email and request and need that we’re responding to. So 100 years is way beyond that. It was so far beyond it for me, I started to feel a bit like a type of vertigo. On this flight, doing this exercise, like a time vertigo, I’m like, oh, my goodness, this is, this is a very odd view of my life. And suddenly, what I saw at first in that vertigo is, you’re just such a small part of this story. So the first thought is quite minimizing. But then there’s this second discovery. And it grows, I think, out of the nothingness. It’s like, wow, I the small part of the story, and then you go, Yeah, but it’s a big, it’s a big, great story. The story is so much bigger. And so now we get to play Yes, a smaller role. But in a bigger on a bigger screen, on a bigger stage with way larger ramifications. And so everything you’re describing is the natural outgrowth of, of this seed of an idea is that you can go back and learn about them. And you can start to see life differently. And to summarize what I’m saying here, and the connection, I feel back to the story you just told about your aunt is in one word, perspective.

Dana Biberston     

Absolutely. That is to me, after going through this experience, that’s why I say that is the diamond of this concept of essentialism. Because it changes your perspective, it changes how you feel about not only again, with my grandmother, it didn’t just change my story with my grandmother, it changed and deepened my love for horizontal relationships. And it inspires me to want to do better. And to be that connecting for the next generation and beyond several generations.

Greg McKeown     

I feel like what you’re describing is basically like level one and level two essentialism. Level one is asking all the same questions, what is essential, what should we eliminate? How can you build a system that makes it easier to do overtime? But if you try and answer all those questions, parked against a wall in the garage, your answers are going to reflect your perspective. And so, as you graduate from essentialism 101 and turn to 202 essentialism course, you start to say, oh my goodness, that would that new perspective, what matters changes. Who matters changes. How I feel about them changes. And there’s so much richness in level two.

Dana Biberston   

No, I was just going to say that’s to me where that connection, the deep love and the deep life. That’s where you feel that is when you’re connected. To the bones,to that cellular core. And you realize that that DNA is not just physical DNA that passes along. It’s not just the eye trait. It’s not just the height, or the hair color. It’s a spiritual DNA. It’s a characteristic DNA. It’s a way you approach your life or at least the perspective that you can have as you approach your life. It’s to that DNA level.

Greg McKeown     

For me, the distinction between living life where the narrative is birth till death is completely different than this broader perspective where narrative is intergenerational. That’s what the vertigo is on the plane. That’s what the shift is, when you move back in the parking lot, you see, I am connected in a part of something so much bigger. And I’m so much closer to them. And I think about, we’re having this conversation today at such a curious time in the world, where there are so many forces for good, and there’s also so many other forces, not so much for good. And the tendency to be divided, to feel separate, to say well those people are like this, those people are a danger to our society. There are so many groups doing that to each other. And it ratchets up the division. And it pushes people further and further apart, as they mistrust each other, more and more. And what you’re describing, I think, is such an antidote to that feeling. We are so interconnected. Once you take a longer perspective, we are so part of the same universal family. It’s harder to hate when you realize how close you all are. 

Dana Biberston   

Absolutely. And I feel like with going back to you know, Dr. Williams, I remember when I was listening to your podcast, and she talked about being on going to visit her grandparents that were sharecroppers, it stops me in my tracks. My grandma was a sharecropper. So instantly, even though we will probably never meet, we have different backgrounds, we’re different races. But there is a connection there, that we can have these connections through these stories that aren’t limited to my family, or my background, or my ethnicity, my gender, these stories can connect us beyond not just intergenerational, but also to each other now, and moving forward. And that’s quite powerful.

Greg McKeown     

I love that connection. And building on that, this is where suddenly the empowerment comes in the hundred-year vision, where you start to say, given my small but pivotal role in the great intergenerational narrative, I can I can do something special, I could be a change agent. I can do things differently than what came before me so that people after me are different, and have a different set of opportunities. That they can know a bit more of who they are, and how they got to be where they are, and why they think the way they think, and how connected they are, you can increase the chances that the people after you think with this kind of intergenerational perspective, and that that really is, to me, at least essential. Give us your final thoughts?

Dana Biberston     

I just need to close by saying that I really appreciate your work. And that this, this idea of essentialism, truly is relevant. And it’s one that especially at this time of year, right now, as we’re all in COVID. And whenever somebody listens to this podcast, who knows what, what life will look like then, but as we’re entering into these holidays, we naturally have an opportunity to turn our hearts to what we’re grateful for, as well as family. And we can have those conversations and ask questions and use that these holidays as times to reach out and connect. So that when we get to that January, time of, you know, looking at 2021, or whatever that next year is, and what is most essential, we’re going to have a better perspective. And what goes down on that list is going to be not only powerful, but it’s going to be essential. And that’s, that’s where we really each get that privilege. If we’ll just take the time to get curious, and to do something, write something down, no matter how small. So I really appreciate your time and having this discussion. Thank you so much.

Greg McKeown   

I can’t do better than what you just offered. Thank you so much, Dana, for being here for telling us your story for engaging with essentialism, in raw and open, vulnerable way, but also in a way that’s enlightening and expansive, to remind us into, engages in this next level of essentialism, where we start to see what matters from that kind of perspective.

Greg McKeown     

Thank you, Dana.