22. Gretchen Rubin on Exploring Human Nature

Speakers

Greg McKeown, Gretchen Rubin

---

Transcript

Greg McKeown

Gretchen, I feel like we know each other by rumor. I know all about your work and our paths have never directly crossed, or maybe they have and I’m forgetting that would be rude. But I don’t think we’ve ever been in the room, you know, the same room where it happened and but it’s awfully nice to have an excuse to be talking to each other.

Gretchen Rubin     

Oh it’s great. Yes. Now I know, it seems like we would have banged into each other someplace, but I don’t think that we ever have.

Greg McKeown     

But here we are now. And if you’re okay, let’s just jump in. Is that all right?

Gretchen Rubin 

Let’s do it, okay.

Greg McKeown 

Okay, I have a question for you. Right, right off the bat, which is, actually just tell me about your law school journey. Because I don’t know if you know this, but I went to law school myself before I got wise and quit.

Gretchen Rubin 

How far did you go?

Greg McKeown     

Well, one year. So nothing on what you did. You really became successful in what you were doing. And obviously, this is part of the beginning of the story of where you are today. But can you just fill us in on that journey?

Gretchen Rubin     

Yeah I mean, I went to law school for the reason that a lot of people go to law school, I was like, I’m good at research and writing. I’m good at school. It’s a great education. It’ll keep my options open. I can always change my mind later. My father is a lawyer in a very happy lawyer.  I had the example of a happy lawyer in my life. So I thought, Oh, you know, I didn’t know what else to do with myself. That’s like, one of the hardest things to figure out is like, what do you want to do when you get out of college? So I decided, oh, go to law school. And you know, I did very well in law school. I was editor in chief of the law journal.

Greg McKeown 

At Yale and yeah, that’s important.

Gretchen Rubin 

Yeah, yeah.

Greg McKeown 

Top Law School.

Gretchen Rubin 

Yeah. Um, and went on to clerk for Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor. And, but, and when I was clerking for her, I had this epiphany. I am a person who is subject to epiphanies. But I was staring up at the Capitol dome against the blue sky. And I thought, you know, I just was asking myself a rhetorical question. I was like, what am I interested in, that every other person in the world is interested in? What is the most interesting and I thought, well, power, money, fame. And it was like those ideas, that set of ideas hit me like a thunderbolt. And I was like, power, money, fame. And I started just doing massive research and taking notes, which is something that I do that’s not that unusual for me, like I do, ever since I was a child, I will get really, really interested in something and kind of do a lot of research on it. And, but this really took over and I was staying late. And I was doing it on the weekends. And like reading everything I get my hands on and writing. And finally, it occurred to me, this is the kind of thing a person would do if they were going to write a book. And then I thought, well, maybe I could be the person to write that book. And I went out to the bookstore and got a book called something like how to write and sell your nonfiction book proposal,

and I just followed the directions. And that became my first book. So that’s how I transition from law to writing

Greg McKeown     

I love that and but come back to that moment where you’re looking at the blue sky over the capitol. Why were you asking the question? What everybody in the world interested in?

Gretchen Rubin     

You know, I, you know, if I look back on all the books that I’ve written, my books are always about human nature. That is my interesting that is my interest in life is human nature. Who are we? Why do we do what we do? How can we change if we want to change? And so I am constantly, I have like these rhetorical questions like, running through my head at all times that I’m always sort of thinking about. And that’s a question like, what are people interested in, like, what captures people’s attention and for whatever, on that day, I was living in Washington, DC, that’s probably part of it. That power, money, fame, I remember I was at a book party with like a very famous writer, and I was telling him about the book and he goes, power, money, fame you need to pick three red, white and blue things always come in threes. And I was like power, money, fame. Which one would you leave out? Like, it’s not three artful reasons. It’s because of the world of human nature. Um, so uh, yeah, so I think it was because I was just thinking, I’m constantly sort of asking myself these questions like, you know, why can’t people I understand why people can’t get themselves to do things they don’t like to do. Why is it that people can’t get themselves to do things they love to do? I thought about that for years. Um, you know, so I think I was just always running through my head these kinds of questions.

Greg McKeown   

But that strikes me curious because I don’t know that everybody walks around with that kind of question going on. That, to me seems like the question a teacher would ask someone who, even if you didn’t know it at that time, wanted to share a message with the world wanted to be part of the big conversation in a different way. I feel like there’s something there about the very fact that you are even asking these rhetorical questions that this is running around in your mind. Thoughts?

Gretchen Rubin   

Well, in a way, I wonder if the if the person I’m trying to teach is myself, because I feel like often the reason that I write something is to figure out what I think, or to understand, like, it forces me to, like, think something through or like, allows me to get all the information that I need, you know, put together. So I feel like often, the, the student is me, and the teacher is me, you know, researches is me search. And, yeah, so maybe I’m playing both roles. I asked him, I said, and then I have to be the one to answer the question. the only the only way I can answer the question is to somehow write through it, which has definitely always been the case for me.

Greg McKeown     

What are your learnings about the question you just posed a moment ago about why people can’t get them to do themselves to do things they want to do. What are your thoughts?

Gretchen Rubin     

Well, that’s my four tendencies framework, I don’t know if we have time if you want to get into my whole personality framework, which divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers and rebels

Greg McKeown     

Okay you need to slow that down, though.

Gretchen Rubin     

So I have a four tendencies personality framework that divides humanity into four categories; upholders, questioners, obligers and rebels. And there’s, if there’s, if you want to take a quiz, there’s like a free quick free quiz on my site. At quiz.GretchenRubin.com and like 3 million people have taken this quiz. And what it looks at is something that sounds really boring, but turns out to be really juicy, which is how do you respond to expectations. So we all face two kinds of expectations, outer expectations and inner expectation. So outer expectations is like a work deadline. Inner expectations is like, I want to get back into meditation. And depending on how you respond to outer and inner, that’s what makes you an upholder, a questioner an obligers or rebel. The biggest category of person is obliger. For both men and women, that’s the biggest one. And obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And so a lot of times when someone says, Why can’t I get myself to do something that I want to do that I love to do? I often it’s because the person is an obliger. And they have no trouble doing the requests from the friend, they have no trouble meeting the deadline from the boss, they have no trouble showing up at carpool at the right time. But when they’re trying to make time to meditate, when they’re trying to make time to have piano lessons, when they’re trying to make time to go for a walk. They struggle because they don’t have, they don’t have outer accountability, they need outer expectations in order to meet inner expectations. And then once you know that, then you’re just like, oh, if you’re an obliger, all you need is outer accountability to do if you want to read more and join a book group. It’s easy once you know that that’s kind of the missing piece. But a lot of times people in my view, misdiagnose that missing piece. So they try different things that often don’t work. Because what in my view, what they need is outer accountability to meet an inner expectation.

Greg McKeown     

If an obliger wanted to launch a new career, or a new chapter in their career, how would they go about that?

Gretchen Rubin     

That’s a really good question. Because a lot of obligers are really puzzled because they’re like, well, when I was working my office job, I was incredibly productive. And now that I’m going off on my own, where is all that conscientiousness? Like, why am I stalling out? And so my thing is create outer accountability. So often, an obliger needs to create a client or a customer or a student, before they even have a product. It’s like get people waiting for it. Have people depending on you. You’re a wedding photographer, book a wedding, now you got to go buy a camera, because somebody is expecting you to show up at their wedding and take photographs of them, you know, bring in that outer accountability or work with the coach. I think a lot of times that’s why people work with executive coaches, because coaches will often hold you accountable. Or, you know, think of your role your duty to be a role model to other people. I’m telling my children that I’m going to do this and I need to show them what it looks like to keep promises to yourself into move forward. I want to be a role model. Sometimes people announce things on Facebook, I’m doing this so that they have this sense that people are checking on them. There’s a million ways to create an accountability once you know that’s what you need. It is the biggest group. So the world has created many forms of outer accountability. There’s lots of apps you can sign up for. There’s lots of groups you can sign up for. Because so many people really do find it so much easier. But the thing is, it’s like they need it for things they enjoy too. And that’s the thing that I think surprises them. I love to read, why can’t I find time to read? Well, you need to find outer accountability for that.

Greg McKeown     

Mm hmm. I love this insight, what percentage of people are in that category?

Gretchen Rubin         

That is about 40%.

Greg McKeown     

Hmm. And then the other three, give us the summary of the other three.

Gretchen Rubin     

So when you think about, well, what are the percentages in the world, about 41% of people are obligers. So that’s a very big grip. And again, it’s the biggest group for both men and women. 24% are questioners, then 19% are upholders. That’s my category. And then 17%, or rebel, which is the smallest group, but it’s a very conspicuous group. And in all the questioners you’re like, but it doesn’t add up to 100. And that’s right. Because often when you do surveys like this, it doesn’t exactly add up to 100. I know that and that’s okay. But so you see that there’s a lot of you either are obliger, or you have many obligers in your life. And so it’s an issue that many people will, this is a challenge that many people need to face.

Greg McKeown     

Tell me, give me the synopsis of questioners

Gretchen Rubin     

So questioners question all expectations, they’ll do something if they think it makes sense, they resist anything arbitrary and effective, unjustified, they have to know why. So, if something meets their inner expectation, they will do it No problem. If it fails, their inner expectation they will resist. So you know, their motto is all comply if you convince me why. These are the people that are told you ask too many questions, or you know, won’t do something if they don’t think it makes sense. I’m married to a questioner, so I know this tendency very well.

Greg McKeown        

And then and then you said you were which category?

Gretchen Rubin   

I’m upholder.

Greg McKeown     

What’s an upholder?

Gretchen Rubin     

An upholder readily meets outer and inner expectations. So they meet the work deadline, they keep the new year’s resolution without much fuss, they want to know what other people expect from them. But their expectations for themselves are just as important or more important. So their motto is discipline is my freedom.

Greg McKeown     

And rebels?

Gretchen Rubin   

So rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner, like they want to do what they want to do in their own way in their own time. And they can do anything they want to do anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist. And typically, they don’t like to tell themselves what to do. Like they don’t sign up for a 10am working class on Saturday morning, because they think I don’t know what I’m going to want to do on Saturday morning. And just the idea that people are expecting me to show up at a certain time is going to bug me. So their motto is you can’t make me and neither can I.

Greg McKeown     

What, what does a rebel do to become? I mean, how does a rebel thrive?

Gretchen Rubin     

Rebels can be enormously successful. Rebels, it’s a matter of identity, it’s who they are, they want it, the authenticity is so important to them. And so if they think I’m an athlete, I’m a poet, I’m a musician. I’m a responsible parent, I’m a considerate boss, I’m a visionary, I’m a leader, then, then their actions will follow because they’ll do anything that they want to do. And so for them, it’s very important to be very tied to why am I choosing to do this? And, and to think about the consequences of their action or inaction. Like if I want this, then I’m going to do that because I want what the end result will be. They’re not going to do it because they’re supposed to, or because you told them to, or because they have to, or because it’s the rule, but don’t do it because they want to do it for their own reasons, and in their own way and in their own time. So they can be enormously successful. And they can be very, very, they’re often very values driven. But they’re doing it because they want to.

Greg McKeown     

When people come to ask you about writing, and they say, oh, I want to write a book. What is your most important advice to them?

Gretchen Rubin     

My most important advice and it sounds preposterous. But I truly believe it is the most important thing, no matter what you’re trying to write, know what you want to say, have something to say. Because often people, it’s very easy, surprisingly, not really to have much to say or not to know what you want to say. And I will be working on things myself where I’m like, No, really, I, you know, what am I really trying to say here, I’m kind of just writing words. And once you have an idea that you want to communicate, it’s like the work in the writing, the quality of the writing actually matters less, because you’re so excited about the idea and the desire to communicate, and then comes the desire to hone it. And to make it very powerful. And to really work on the words.

Greg McKeown     

Is there something you want to say now in a future book that’s really clear to you, even if it’s not the next book you’re going to write? Do you have such an idea?

Gretchen Rubin     

Yes, I want to write a book, which will be called something like symbols beyond words, which is about when things happen or symbols are invoked, that seemed to have just like crazy power. And I have some examples of this where this has happened in my own life. You come across them often in literature and art. And I just collect them because I’m listening to you. They’re so fascinating, but I really, I don’t know enough about what I would say I just like, Oh my gosh, this is like crazy situation, a crazy example of human nature at work. So I feel like that’s something I have to work up to, you know, I have to grow in knowledge and experience and wisdom. And then someday I will be like, now I am ready to write the book symbols beyond words.

Greg McKeown 

What’s an example?

Gretchen Rubin    

If you read Carl Young’s dream of what is it memories, dreams, reflections, it’s like the whole thing is a collection of symbols beyond words. I’ve read that book like seven times.

Greg McKeown      

Yeah, so what what’s, uh, what’s an example of a symbol beyond the word for you?

Gretchen Rubin     

Well, like, Okay, well, so I always have to translate them into words, of course, because that’s my nature. But like, I wrote a book, I wrote a paper in law school, and then ended up actually writing a book in collaboration with an artist because I was so preoccupied with examples of when owners would choose to destroy their own possessions. There are many, many powerful striking examples where people I first got my insight into this because I went to a museum that had a whole exhibit on about Potlatch, which is a tradition where you can’t you It’s complicated, it’s about gift giving. And then in kind of its later stages, it became about like, destroying property. And I was like, what, what is going on. And this is, of course, very contrary to the way lawyers think, because they’re thinking about possessions and rights, but one of the rights of possessions is the right to destroy, but you don’t have an absolute right to destroy. There’s a lot of laws about what you can destroy and what you can’t destroy. I just became incredibly preoccupied with this. And all these examples of like, for instance, there was a, like a Japanese tycoon, who kind of announced that he was going to be I can’t he was going to be burnt buried with his Matisse or he was going to be buried with his Monet or something like for some masterpiece, and the world went crazy. Like, you can’t do that. Well, he could keep it in a basement and never let anybody see it for 100 years. But why can’t he be buried with it? It’s like, to me that’s fascinating.

Greg McKeown     

Why does the subject matter to you so much? What is it underneath it that attracts you so strongly to say, I’ve got to understand this, I’ve got to study this over the coming years, to put words to it?

Gretchen Rubin     

I think it’s like it’s I’m just so fascinated by human nature. And so people do these things and I’m like, how do you explain this? To me, I’m like, I just want it like just to think through what people do. I mean, what they do, the patterns and what people do. I find it endlessly fascinating. And so I think that these symbols beyond words are kind of the it’s kind of when it resonates in a way that is so deep and so powerful that it’s unless it’s like hard to even put words to it.

Greg McKeown     

When you use the word human nature, I sense that that means a lot to you. And it means quite specific things to you. Because human nature is quite a really broad term. And it’s almost anything but I think you it means something more precise, a particular part of human nature that the peccadillo is the surprises that oddities, the nuances that why would anybody do that?

Gretchen Rubin     

But you know, that’s true. But often it’s the obvious and it’s the familiar that is the hardest to see. It’s like this pattern of, like, I got my insight into the tendencies because a friend of mine said something that so many people have said things like this to me, I’m sure you’ve heard it a million times. She said, you know, I know I’d be happier if I exercise. And the weird thing is, you know, in high school, I was on the track team, and I never missed track practice. So why can’t I go running now? And I thought, I’ve heard that 100 times.  So many people have said that, why? It’s so familiar that it almost fades out of view. But how do you explain that? So I agree, I’m very attracted to the odd but it’s almost harder to try to grasp the familiar and the obvious.

Greg McKeown  

But once it once it gets in you. It’s like a splinter in your skin. You got to go after it. You’ve got to learn about it. You have to get that out. And the way you exercise it is by doing the work and writing it and now perhaps then you can let go.

Gretchen Rubin     

Yeah, exactly. It you said exercise. And that’s true. It’s like that’s how I get it out. Yes, once I wrote a book about why people destroyed their own possessions that I didn’t have to be obsessed with it anymore. though. I’m still very interested in it. I’m like not tracking it as closely as I was. back then. Yes, it kind of frees my mind then to think about other things.

Greg McKeown     

Hmm. Yeah. One of my favorite ideas about writing is that writers write because they cannot not write.

Gretchen Rubin     

Yes, that’s very true. I think there is a compulsive element to it. For many people, that’s almost uncomfortable, sometimes.

Greg McKeown     

I, my own experiences it is enormously uncomfortable, and that writing is a cleansing process. And back to normality. Okay, good for today, I managed to get that out. What is writing like for you? Do you do it every day, do you do it in spurts, what’s your writing process?

Gretchen Rubin     

Um, I have, I have a lot of different kinds of writing that I do probably every day. So like, if I’m working on a book, I’m a very, I’m a real morning person. So I always try to do my most taxing work, and original writing I would consider to be my most taxing work first thing in the day. So that’s what I’ll do, kind of for as long as I can maintain that level. And then I also I have a podcast happier with Gretchen Rubin. So I have to work on that. Sometimes I write blog post is retros, that sounds, I still do a post to my blog, I have, I have my big book that I’m working on right now, which is about the five senses in the body. But then I also have side projects, like I’m writing this book of aphorisms, which is like the most fun ever, it’s like my, like my playbook. And so I’ll be working on that too, like, and so a lot of it when I read, I take a lot of notes. And so I will also be typing in my notes and incorporating notes into whatever document where they would make sense or into or if they make sense into an actual draft book, I would be working those in and, you know, putting in a footnote or whatever, then I also have because I love quotations. And I have since I was I’ve collected quotations since I was a child I, I do a new I do a daily newsletter with called the moment of happiness where it’s like a wonderful quotation every day. And so I also am always collecting those. So I might find a wonderful quotation that isn’t related to a subject that I’m tracking as to write about that I’m like, Oh, that’s such a beautiful line, that would make a great moment of happiness. So then I have to write that down. And so and then I have quotations that I keep that aren’t appropriate for that, but are just great writing for me. And then I have all these documents where I’m just tracking kind of giant subject. So I spend a lot of time actually like writing something that would be polished for an audience. But then I also do a lot of writing where it’s just kind of like maintenance, work on subjects where I’m, I’m kind of accumulating information, knowledge examples. A lot of what I write, nobody ever sees, and will never see. And I might even forget that I did it. I’m always coming across like 40,000 Word documents that I kind of forgot about. So in the course of one day, I do a lot of different kinds of writing.

Greg McKeown     

How do you feel when you come across 40,000 words that you know about?

Gretchen Rubin     

What’s funny is that usually I’ve kind of forgotten about that. But it’s like it’s been picked up some other way. It’s like, I think that I, I think I’ve let something go. But it’s actually just morphed. So a lot of it. And I don’t know if you’ve ever had this bizarre experience where like, you will write something a year ago, and then you will write something today, thinking that it’s the first time you’ve articulated an idea, and you will see that you wrote it almost verbatim, like months before. It’s just the way the mind a person’s mind frame something. So often, I will see, oh, I wrote this, and I kind of forgot about it. But I see that I’m still working through the same ideas in this other place or this other document. So I do try to go back from time to time and see like, Is there something I kind of forgot and I did because I maybe I need that now.

Greg McKeown     

I find it to a shocking degree. I’ve just started rereading journals from 25 years ago. And I haven’t really read them I I’ve kept journals pretty faithfully for all these years but not gone back and reread them. And it’s it seems like so odd that I haven’t done that. Why am I storing all these books up? But as you go back and you suddenly go, oh, my goodness, when I was 20, I was already thinking about the thing I was thinking about yesterday and it’s a bit bizarre.

Gretchen Rubin     

A friend of mine who did the same thing you did. She said I realize I keep having the same insights over and over like for the first time. You know, it’s yes, the mind circles a lot. Yeah, no, it is. That’s a really wow, what an interesting undertaking. It must be kind of mentally exhausting though.

Greg McKeown  

Well, to keep. It’s like we’re living memento. We’re just yeah, just keep waking up. Yeah, as if we haven’t made progress and, and keep but I think it’s also telling to start seeing what the repeated thoughts and feelings of our life, because clearly, there’s some sort of messenger involved here. Something coming through as that needs to be manifest isn’t this I just I just heard. David Bednar, a leader in church I go to has this experience. He’s not a musician, but he keeps on feeling music inside of him. And he goes, and he talks to one of his, you know, talented, exceptional musical friends. And he says, I need you to help me to get this music out of me. And, and they did. So it’s been published now and it’s an absolutely beautiful piece. And I just thought in that story, there was a lot of volumes in that little moment for all of us that we all have music inside of us of some kind, that needs to come out. And in perhaps in our case, it’s it’s writing and ideas that have been trying to make themselves manifest, but we just keep forgetting that they’ve been there something there. Thoughts?

Gretchen Rubin      

Yes. We, you know, it’s interesting. I mean, I see this among writers is it’s, I always think of it as a blocking project. And this is where people have the need to create something, even though it kind of doesn’t make sense for them to do it. Like a friend of mine is, like very very esteemed journalist and kind of, you know, nonfiction writer, and she was writing a play. And I said, that’s interesting that you’re deciding to write a play, why do you want to do that, and she said, I don’t even really want to do it. But I feel like I have, like, I can’t do anything else until I get this play out of me kind of like your friend, I need to get it out of me. It’s like blocking my path forward. And I’ve had situations like that myself. And I’ve talked to a surprising number of people where it’s like, this has to be go out into the world, even though I don’t really know what I’m doing. And I don’t even really feel like I want to, but I sort of have to. Um, so that’s interesting, though, that he recruited somebody to help him. Yes, this is a great example of like, you don’t always need the skills you think you need. I mean, it’s like, I remember, finding out the Dolly Parton doesn’t read music, Paul McCartney doesn’t read music, you think you have to be able to read music? No, you don’t know, you know, you figure a workaround. If you want to, you know, like, you can publish music. If all you need is the idea, and you find people who can help you get where you need to go. So that’s fascinating.

Greg McKeown     

Arguably, you are best known for the theme of happiness, given the name of the podcast, given happiness project, happier at home and so on. What are the vital few things you’ve learned about how to be happier since writing your books about happiness?

Gretchen Rubin     

Well, one thing I knew going in, but just spending so much time thinking about it and reading the research and just reflecting on it is really in the end. It’s relationships. I mean, that is what we need to be happy when you look at the people are happier, they have happier, they have more relationships, they have deeper relationships. And if you’re not, if you’re not happy in your relationships, it’s you can’t be happy. And so now I always think like if I’m trying to decide something, I’m like, is this gonna deepen a relationship or broaden the relationship, because if it is it’s probably going to make me happier. So that’s definitely something that I sort of knew going in. But now I became so much more of a zealot about it, because I really thought through how important it was. And I would say the other thing, and this was something I didn’t really understand nearly as well is the importance of self-knowledge. Like each of us has to do his or her own. We have to do our own happiness project. We have to figure out our own temperament our own ideas. Our own values, what’s essential to us, what’s essential to me is not essential to you. And everybody has to figure out what’s essential and build their life around that. And, and nobody can do that for you. Nobody can, nobody can hand you a template. It, it’s kind of the great challenge of our lives. And so this, this the importance of self-knowledge, and, and the challenge of self-knowledge, it’s hard to decide what’s essential. You’re like, I got 1000, things that are essential, it’s like, Well, again, I’ll be essential. Um, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s work to figure these things out about ourselves.

Greg McKeown 

What’s something that’s essential for you that you’re under investing and right now?

Gretchen Rubin     

I think my friendships because, you know, it’s it. Everybody’s social lives are completely disrupted. And I and I do, I do have lots of zooms, I do. I go and walk and talk with brands, we’re like, we’ll talk on the phone while we walk wherever we are, which is great, because I can be with somebody anywhere in the world. It doesn’t have to be somebody, you know, in New York City. And I talk to my family all the time, but I do feel like it’s, it’s, it’s, I don’t have the usual structures in place that like, get me out and get me get me meeting new people and get me in contact with people that maybe I wouldn’t necessarily zoom with. And I so I’ve been thinking about how, how do I make sure that I really do stay connected with people that are close to me? And how do I kind of push the envelope to include people who are less close to me, or maybe close to me, but I’m just not in that constant contact there. Maybe not up like top of mind, I need to go to like the middle of mind.

Greg McKeown     

It sounds like you feel a little more. I think lots of people feel this now a little more isolated, a little even lonely, then, under usual circumstances.

Gretchen Rubin     

The thing is, I really I’m a homebody, I’m like, get along really well with my family. So I don’t I wish I was wish I felt lonelier, because I think maybe but that actually loneliness researchers loneliness doesn’t necessarily make people want to reach out. A paradoxically that often makes me feel defensive and judgmental. Um, yeah, I’m kind of happy, just like staying home and like having more time to read. But I know at the end, I’ll be happier if I connect with other people. So I almost have to intellectually trust it’s not it’s not so much my emotional desire to do it, but my knowledge that it will pay off.

Greg McKeown     

There’s a need that isn’t acute at first, and is normally being met by the normal flow of life, getting out being at an event speaking at an event, all of that makes that need gets met, but now it doesn’t get met naturally. So now you need a sort of new system, a new tweak, a new thing to do. What are you considering doing to meet this need in a sort of systematic way?

Gretchen Rubin   

Well, systematic is exactly the word I was thinking of. Because for me, everything needs to be done systematically. I’m like very linear. And so I was thinking, you know, I do have a couple walk and talks or zooms every week, but maybe I need to like, say, once a week, like Sunday, I’m going to think of somebody that I haven’t connected with yet since March, and email them and say, do you want to do X, do you want to do Y? And so that I do have more people kind of in my active. But then I’m in touch with in an active way, because for a while, I think it was all like, Oh, this is we’re just kind of all on pause and an admin that’s like, man, this is not just pause. It’s like, you know, it’s time to deal with it. And so, yeah, so I think maybe just not something crazy, but just like once a week, like connect with somebody, whether that’s a phone call, or a zoom or a walk and talk or, you know, whatever it would be.

Greg McKeown     

It’s been such a pleasure to talk to you today. Gretchen I’m so glad that we’ve had an excuse to do it. And I look forward to the conversation. Thank you.

Gretchen Rubin   

Thank you so much. I look forward to the day when we will meet in person at last our lives, our paths will cross in real life. It will be delightful.

Greg McKeown     

Amen to that. Thank you, Gretchen.

Gretchen Rubin     

Thank you.