Speakers
Greg McKeown, Jeff Burningham
Greg McKeown
My guest today is Jeff Burningham. Jeff is a Jeff’s that entrepreneur that you knew in high school, or a neighbor of yours who’s going to go and build a billion-dollar businesses? And you think, wow, I don’t know about that. And, and but then Jeff actually did it. Three businesses a billion dollars, or greater in revenue. A, you know, just ran for governor in Utah. Family, man, good man. And it’s just a real delight to have you on the west central podcast today. Thank you, Jeff and welcome.
Jeff Burningham
Oh, thank you, Greg. That was way too kind of introduction. And I’ve been a fan of your work, as you know, now for many years. And I think you’re the guy that’s changing the world, I haven’t done much, but I’d love your, your thoughts around essentialism. And now, the effortless and I’m grateful to be with you today.
Greg McKeown
It when you say that it makes me think of it makes me think of high school. And it makes me it makes me think of that I don’t think anybody in high school would have said, you know, Greg’s gonna go on and do things and make an impact. And I just don’t think anybody would have seen that. And I don’t, that’s no false modesty. Whatever, Greg, you were voted most likely to succeed. No, I mean, that there was no real that doesn’t really happen in British schools in the same way. But nevertheless, it I it really clearly wouldn’t have been the case for me.
And, and it, it leaves me to reflect on a sort of problem with success, which I’ve been thinking a lot about recently, which is, if you look at, at moments of success in people’s lives, then you can miss the broader story, the important longer term, story of success. You know, before we were well, the first time we talked about all of this, if I can summarize it, the the problem happens when you look at moments of success. And, and and sort of project from there, oh, well, somebody in high school was the captain of the rugby team or the football team. And, but But actually, that becomes their peak moment. That’s as far as they’re going to get. Or same happens in college, or the same happens early on in somebody’s career. And I want to contrast that with, I think, a better way of thinking about the narrative of success, the longer term perspective, where you say, How can I sustain success over the very long run or even better, how can I build momentum over a long period of time, because if you can do that, then you can be you can achieve extraordinary things and your contribution gets greater and greater. And even if you didn’t look at any particular point, like you are going to be, you know, a big deal or make a big impact you actually can because it accumulates. And it becomes something really special over time. Your thoughts?
Jeff Burningham
Yeah, I think it’s really interesting, Greg, we’re on the same wavelength. I think we’re the same stage of life, we’re thinking a lot about the same things. My first question is what is success? You know, how is success defined? it’s been defined for us in this, you know, it’s been defined for us, I think, largely by the media, by pop culture, etc, etc, what success is and or what it looks like. And I think social media exacerbates some of those problems. But I think success for each individual is maybe unique and different. I’m kind of reflecting here in my mid 40s, and trying to be better, but is this idea and it’s one that I’ve been thinking about for decades, and talking a little bit about as well. But this idea of relationships versus results. And it’s my belief that the best teams usually win. I mean, there are anomalies. But usually, the best teams of individuals win. So if you’re on a competitive football team, basketball team, if you’re in business, it’s about gathering the best teams. And those best teams are made up of relationships, you’re striving for results. But really, the end result you want is a relationship with your team that is unbreakable so that you can go and change the world, so that you can make the difference that you were meant to make. But that doesn’t happen individually. That happens in teams. And I think too, often times in my life and in other’s lives. You know, we’re especially for type A driven personalities was certainly that fits me, and a lot of us, but we’re too focused on a short-term result instead of the long-term relationship, which is the result that we actually want in the end anyways.
Greg McKeown
Yeah, I think you have it exactly right. That, that as an insecure overachiever, we tend for whatever reasons, to, to need to prove ourselves, to want to praise or attention, or, or just an orientation, a temperament type, when we say, you know, just impact and influences is key to who we are for any or all of those reasons we prioritize results. Yeah. And we want great results, and in its own, on its own merits, that that’s not some terrible thing at all. However, if it leads to what you’re just alluding to there, where you say, well, it’s all about the results. And even at the cost of relationships. That’s a fool’s bargain. Because, because why?
Jeff Burningham
Because it’s short term thinking. Like you said, it’s, it’s, you have peaks of success, but then maybe even deeper valleys of loneliness, let’s say, No, life is straight. And to the right, you know, if you’re looking at a chart, every life, it’s bumpy, we’re all fellow travelers, here on Earth, and we all need to look out for each other. I think that life is less and less about competition. This is the older I get, because by the way, I was a competitive athlete growing up and, and in fact, still played basketball this morning in my mid 40s. I love sports. I love competing. But actually, what’s different now is the 10 guys that I played with this morning, it’s more, it’s less about me winning or our team winning. And it’s more about the relationship that I have with these guys. what that translates to on the court and off the court.
Greg McKeown
I’ve been thinking a lot about this. Let me state it this way and see what your thoughts are. The most essential thing in life is relationships. The most essential thing in relationships is communication. The most essential thing in communication is listening. Your thoughts?
Jeff Burningham
I think it’s I just laughed because listening is really hard. It tells me this, Greg, I mean, listening has to be one of the most underrated skills on the planet, you will never have a social media post about listening or you will never, you never hear someone say this, this is a great politician or a great servant leader or a great CEO, because they’re a good listener, like you just, you know, you don’t hear that from the talking heads. But I was laughing just because it’s something that I struggle with
Greg McKeown
I think it’s actually something that people overrate in themselves but underrate as a skill.
Jeff Burningham
I agree, all of us say we’re good listeners, or we think we’re good listeners, but I don’t think it’s true.
Greg McKeown
And we don’t think it’s that important anyway, it’s like, okay, it’s a nice to have skill, but it’s not the thing that’s going to really disproportionately, you know, make a difference in the world.
Jeff Burningham
I totally agree. But Greg, once you say, here’s another one that I’ll just what about compassion or empathy? I think this is another one. Now there’s been a lot more talk about empathy recently. But I think compassion and or empathy, which are slightly different, but those are underrated as well. Like those are underrated skills in teams, especially and in high performing teams. And in relationships that we just do not talk enough about. And by the way, I don’t necessarily excel at these things, these are things I’m striving to become, I’m striving to be more compassionate, I’m striving have more empathy, striving to listen more.
Greg McKeown
We can go even deeper, we can say that if listening is the most important thing in communication, we can say well, the most important thing in listening is empathic restating, and the most important thing and empathic restating is being able to get into somebody else’s head and out of your own. And the most important thing in being able to do that is to recognize that we have stories and paradigms in our own head, that don’t describe perfectly the world out there. And so we have to first just even be aware, my goodness, I’m full of stories, I’m full of paradigms and full of ways of seeing the world. And that is not the same as the world out there. And as soon as you make that, Eureka, you start to say, Well, I wonder how other people see the world. And what, yeah, even if I don’t end up agreeing with how they see the world, at least, I can become aware of how I would have a relationship with that person, or how I would even go about influencing them.
Because to just assume that people see the world as we do. Seems like seems like a dangerous, you know, presumption.
Jeff Burningham
But look, people aren’t seeing the world that you do. I you know, I traveled all around this great state and met 10s of 1000s of everyday people well known, not well known, you know, farmers to successful business people, you know, every everyone that you can think of, and this is what I’ve also traveled to 50 countries, my wife and I love traveling together with her Children, we think it’s one of the richest places of learning. And again, my, what I come away with is number one, we’re all a lot more alike than we are different. And number two, like you just said, we have stories in our heads that we tell ourselves, we think people are thinking about us or judging us. Now they’re not they’re busy with their own lives. Another one is just about disruption, personal disruption, even and, and that is, you know, really the reason that I felt like I was kind of on the top of my game I had done a lot in business, I had kind of gone through all the ups and downs, I felt like I had seen great things and seen hard things and had some success. I felt like I needed to disrupt myself, I thought it would be good for my kids to see me lose, potentially, I thought it would be good for us to go through some hard things together to not be on top, but to go down to the bottom, as a political no name and, you know, face something that would be hard for us. And that’s something that’s been enriching in my life. And as you know, now, I’ve started a podcast, the extraordinary is podcast, like, I find that I’m constantly kind of disrupting myself and challenging myself to try new things to do new things. But as you know, you’re never you know, you’re not the best when you start. It’s a whole, you know, it’s a whole learning curve that you’re stepping into when you try new things. It’s humbling.
Greg McKeown
it’s humbling. It’s humbling, It must have been, it must have been humbling for you. Because even though you knew it would be different, even though you knew you had to start at the beginning, you came at it with a sense of momentum. A sense of, you know, I, I’ve built these things. I’m known by lots of people. And suddenly you were you were in new rooms. You weren’t in, you weren’t in the rooms where people already knew you. They were coming to your event they knew about you, they want to have investment, they want to do business, you know, suddenly, it’s a group of people that are like, I don’t even care about anything you’ve done. I just tried to I’m just trying to solve this other problem over here. And so you, I would say, got a richer, more complete sense of, of the world.
Jeff Burningham
So that was definitely humbling I’ll tell you what the other humbling thing was again, and I mentioned that I think, but to just look into the faces of, you know, 10s, of 1000s of great just everyday people to shake their hands to hear their stories to hear their struggles. This world is amazing. I mean, it’s, it’s hard and terrible, but also people are amazing. in every single way in every single facet. I was struck by the goodness of people all around our state, and of course, I think that it reverberates out to the country in the world. I by and large think that people are great. Everyone struggles. Every when you walk into a room, you know, one thing everyone in that room is struggling with something hard that most people don’t know about.
Greg McKeown
One of my favorite words of the, this last month has been the word orienting. And, you know, like, when you’re using a GPS system, and it’s like, okay, it’s searching, it’s trying to find, you know, the address you put in. And I feel like there are some things in life, some experiences, or even a new idea that somebody says, and it just hits us so hard. It might take us a week or a month or even a year, to orient again. And actually, now that we’re riffing on this, I think that this is what a lot of the world is going through right now. Because as, as the pandemic changes, I mean, different people in different parts of the world is changing differently. But certainly in the United States, in a sense, in a tactical sense, it’s done, right? It’s like, okay, most places, you know, mass not required most places open when you go out, even in California, which has been more strict than most states, you know, people are at the restaurants and life looks on the surface, quite normal. But I feel like, actually, what’s happening is that people are still very much orienting. On the surface, that behavior starting to look a bit like it was before, but I don’t think that’s the same as people going. See, I feel the same. There’s no going back. So people are trying to work out. Who are we now? What happens now after we’ve had this experience, and, and on an individual level, it sounds to me like, that’s what you’re still in a year later, you’re still orienting?
Jeff Burningham
I totally agree. And I think one of the things that I’m grappling with, and that the world’s grappling with coming out of COVID, like you said, it’s just, it’s something that’s true, but that we don’t, we get in our routines, and we don’t maybe appreciate it as much as we should, but just the uncertainty of it all. One of the things that I often talk about, I spoke about with entrepreneurs, and I still speak about is fear, and how we often let mistakes of the past things that we can’t let go of, or we don’t want to overcome or forgive or forget. We let mistakes of the past and then fear of an unknown future hinder our progress forward. And what I think COVID has highlighted for a lot of us and certainly my experiences the last couple years, as is just how unknown The future is.
And so I think people are finding their footing. And I think I am and I think a lot of people are trying to find their footing, they’ve been reminded that things don’t have to be they the way they’ve always been. And the future is not known to anybody. How do we grapple with that? How do we deal with that? And how do we succeed and find happiness in a place where there’s just so much unknown?
Greg McKeown
My story for you is that, while you definitely wouldn’t have said to yourself, oh, I’m just going to be governor, that is just going to happen. I reckon that your track record would have led you to believe it. It’s possibility as, as, you know, as real horse, so
Jeff Burningham
Of course, there’s no way I would have gotten in if I didn’t believe so.
Greg McKeown
So for that not to then happen after a series after 20 years of things happening. That seemed implausible, that seemed to some impossible, but that, you know, against the odds, you made it happen to suddenly have a, let’s call it this expectation failure. Yeah. of a fairly public kind of the most public kind, actually the most public kind of your life, right?
Jeff Burningham
I can’t imagine a more public yeah, right.
Greg McKeown
Because the business, the business, things aren’t as public, you know, that they’re important to the people involved, but outside the they aren’t generally media stories, whereas in running for government is so public. That’s, that’s going to, it’s going to take a while, right. And, and, and in it, I can already tell that part of your orienting is, is currently presently life changing. What I see is you, you know, being, I can’t quite describe it, but, but like, shaken. Yes, you know, emotionally shaken, psychologically shaken? Because what does it all mean? Who am I, if I’m not the person who just kind of makes the impossible possible, and makes it happen, and this thing was going to happen as well. And I’m going to, and then I’m going to go on this next journey, to be able to take all I’ve learned and all the skills and put it to work on behalf of all these people, well, who am I now? Those are my stories for you. Where am I right, where am I wrong?
Jeff Burningham
I think you’re largely Right. I mean, I think that I am totally focused on impact. I mean, I am not afraid of disrupting myself. I am not afraid of changing the game plan in order to try to have the biggest impact I can and so one of the things that I’ve been grappling with, Greg, like you said was this success this business success which led to monetary success, which I never expected or dream endeavor wasn’t the reason that I started the company is that I started, I’m a creator. And so I started them. I love creating things out of nothing. And so I really started it for that reason. Now there are byproducts that I am grappling with what do I do to continue to have an impact to try to make a difference and to serve people? And obviously, in my opinion, I had a unique look, as a business person, as someone intimately involved with the economy here in Utah, I had a unique look and an a unique viewpoint, I think, to impact the state as the governor and that and that didn’t work out, I failed, it did not happen, like you said, so what does that mean? Those are those are those questions that I’m grappling with. And I think that we all grapple with in life, we all have a vision of the future. We all have hopes and dreams for the future, when they don’t turn out how we like, what do we do? I’m in this crucial time, I think you’re in a critical time to my youngest is 10. My oldest is 19. You know, out of the house, I have four children. And I have these Next, let’s say eight years until my youngest leaves the house, the impact I want to have. And what I’ve really been focusing on focusing on the relationships with my children, and being there with them. And my point, my point of this is, gosh, that would have been a lot harder to do I see, I talked to our governor Cox, I talked to him texted them a little bit, and I see how busy he is. And I just know that obviously, I would not have that same time that I am having with my children now. And so I’m trying to find joy in that. And that might be the most important impact for me and for most of us to have here on this earth. And I’m certainly trying to build those relationships with my children that will last for something was something I’ve told my wife a lot after is, you know, I’ll be a rich man. If my children want to spend time with me as they grow older, if they want to come back if they still want to visit mom and dad, if they still come to us with questions and concerns and if they want us involved in their lives intimately. I’ll be a rich man, no matter what
Greg McKeown
This does bring us full circle to the theme of what success is and how to achieve it in a sustainable, ongoing way. I’m thinking here before he died, Stephen Covey was working with one of his daughters Cynthia, on a book about living life in crescendo to believe that your highest contribution always lies ahead of you, not behind you. And that goes to I think the heart of the matter because if you if you look at either some glory day, right? Oh, when I was! Then you’ll be trying to recreate the past instead of create the future, which I think is a very dangerous thing to do.
Jeff Burningham
I agree.
Greg McKeown
Similarly, if we get caught up in the biggest failures of the past, the biggest regrets, of course, learn from them. But if we get into living and reliving them, then it also robs us of our ability to create the future.
And, and so I think shifting from that perspective, to really holding this paradigm, my greatest contribution lies ahead of me is a deep is a deeply hopeful, important perspective, just to keep coming back to it, my greatest crush, I haven’t done what I came here to do yet, I haven’t peaked. This is all prepared. All of this is preparatory for some greater contribution that lies ahead. I find that to be soothing and inspiring at the same time, your thoughts?
Jeff Burningham
I completely agree. And I think that, you know, those that do have sustained success, because again, everyone has failure, everyone experiences failure, whether it’s personally, professionally, both or otherwise. And so it’s that perspective, that long term perspective, that long term lens that we can look at life, relationships, and success through that I think is super valuable. And it’s those that can keep that optimistic, faithful, hopeful perspective through the ups and downs of life, that I think really have sustained success, Greg. I mean, it’s, it’s not been a one hit wonder, it’s about having a sustainable impact. And that comes I think, through weathering the storms, through standing up after failure, through getting back up through getting better through recognizing how you can improve. And again, how you can best serve other people. You know, this life in the end, I don’t think is about us. I don’t think even though a lot of our stories, a lot of our narrative focuses around us ourselves, we want to be the heroes of our own story, I get that. Really it doesn’t this life isn’t about us, this life is about serving others and lifting others. And really, in the end, the more that we can do that, I think is is the true mark of a successful life. And it’s truly sustainable. The only sustaining force, in my opinion in the universe in the world is love. Like Love is the only motivating factor that lasts forever. It’s only love. So who are you going to love? How are you going to love and what are you gonna love? Those are important, you know, things to consider.
Greg McKeown
Jeff you could have said those words to me. And the other things you’ve said to me five years ago, the words, the words were there. The ideas were there, even the beliefs were that but I reckon it’s different now.
The when you say the words, they come with different weight to you now that the experiences of the last even just these last couple of years have changed you enough already. That you go, Okay, I see things I didn’t see before I see how true these ideas are. And I’m willing to make different tradeoffs going forward. And there is in for me a story for you here that is that’s almost I keep wanting to use the word magical. It’s like, this is worth it. The if this might have been the only way for you to actually shift from a certain level of stated belief, to real conviction of like, no, this is what matters. Relationships are the most essential thing. I mean, that’s basically what you’ve been saying.
I’ve got to invest differently over the next 20 years than I did over the last 20 without having to feel terrible about last winter. Lots of good things have happened, but I’m going to be different going forward
Jeff Burningham
I mean, I couldn’t even begin to describe the richness, the depth of the last 20 years of my life, what it’s meant to me and how precious it’s been to me, the entrepreneurs I’ve been able to invest in, of course, the family that Sally and I have been able to grow. But I think that this is just the beginning of where I can go. And again, I think this is the true for all of us, you know, like, we all have, you know, other mountains to climb and other experiences to have and hopefully all those lead to growth and success. And I think part of that success. It’s again, I think I mentioned but it’s this growth mindset you have you looked into that, Greg quite a bit. They say this growth mindset, not being afraid to try something new, and fail in order to learn kind of just what you said, it’s in that failure, that we can then learn progress, grow, and hopefully move forward as a more whole and a better person. I’m certainly a work in progress in that regard. And I think we all are, and it’s, it’s a fun chat is the challenge of life.
Greg McKeown
Carol Dweck is of course the psychologist and professor from Columbia for many years now at Stanford, who coined the terms fixed mindset and growth mindset. Friend of mine, a colleague of mine, and so yes, the answer your questions? Yes, I, I, I’ve given a lot of thought to this. And, and also, I mean, I came to her her ideas, because I was struggling.
You know, this is this is going back many, many years now, when I first read about her, her her ideas, but I found myself saying, Oh, I do have a fixed view of intelligence that had had hadn’t slowed me down significantly up to a certain point, but I was at it, I was facing a new challenge. And, and I found myself going Oh, ay, ay, ay, it revealed a weakness and a limit in my thinking and my mindset. And it was, like, just so liberating to go are you can get more intelligent, by, by exerting yourself by trying by by putting yourself forward, that’s something I can control that something I can do something about. There really is this opportunity, in this orienting period, to discover a whole different way of, of contributing, because you’re, you will come at it from greater maturity, a clearer, a clearer understanding of what matters and, and a deeper commitment to align your life to, you know, to that understanding.
Jeff Burningham
Yeah, no, I, I hope the same things I’m looking forward to it, it’s always like is always an exciting adventure. You never know what’s coming. And I appreciate, you know, being surrounded by great people and good friends that that are always there for you. And that help lift you up and guide your path and I can’t wait for the next 20 years. I’m looking, looking forward to it.
Greg McKeown
Jeff Burningham, thank you for taking the time to be on the west central podcast, to just have a conversation. It’s good to talk. It’s good to explore. It’s good to reflect at this inflection point in our lives. Where have we where have we come at now? What do we want to do? Now? What are we prepared to do that maybe we couldn’t even do before. So it’s going to be a great ride. I look forward to being on it with you. Thank you, Jeff
Jeff Burningham
Thanks for having me.
