47. Jon Acuff on The Surprising Solution to Overthinking

SPEAKERS

Greg McKeown, Jon Acuff 

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Greg McKeown     

Jon Acuff, a New York Times bestselling author, the author of a new book, Soundtracks, which I love the surprising solution to overthinking. I think it’s your best book so far.

Jon Acuff 

Thank you.

Greg McKeown    

I think this is a funny way to say it, but it’s like packaged really well. It’s, you know, like, it’s a, it’s a full, clear problem. Great solution. And, and just an overall book that I feel like has, has a lot of relevance for a lot of reasons. But one of the things I think that’s great about it is that you sort of know when you need it, and you know, who needs it? And, and that’s not always easy to do and create in a book, and you’ve done it, and great title. Oh, I just love it. I think you’ve done excellent job with it. And welcome to the What’s Essential podcast, it’s great to have you.

Jon Acuff     

Yeah, thanks for thanks for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this one as a fan of your work. And you know, we’ve passed, you know, I’m sure in different publishing halls and different events, it’s fun to finally connect

Greg McKeown   

Yeah, it’s one of my genuine, enjoyable things about doing podcast is having an excuse to actually get to know people that you sort of know, I don’t know, sort of know by rumor, or, or know by respect, but don’t actually have an excuse or reason to get over that line. So it’s great to have you. Could you just, I mean, you have such a great problem statement, and how you came to this book and so on, would you just give us the download on that, first of all?

Jon Acuff     

Sure. Well, whenever I write a book, or work on something new, I look for three things, I look for a personal connection. Because as you know, as an author, you’re going to talk about this for years, so you should be personally connected to it. The second thing I look for is

Greg McKeown     

First of all, so true. Almost painfully true.

Jon Acuff     

Yeah. So you have to find it thing that haunts you almost like a question you’re willing to go dig deep on talk about find new ways to talk about So first, is that the second is do people need it? Do I you know, as I’m traveling, as I’m communicating online, as I’m in, you know, talking with friends, do I see a real need? And third is, is there a spot for it in the marketplace? That’s kind of my Venn diagram of how I look at ideas. Because let’s say you have you identify a need, you identify a hole in the marketplace, but you’re not personally connected to it, you just created a new day job. Like it might make money and might have a spot in the market, but you’re not going to enjoy it, you’re going to quit on it. And so, with this book, I’ve been an overthinker. For years, I learned something about changing my thoughts back in 2008. That really changed my career and kind of the trajectory of my life. So I was deeply connected to it. And then there’s a PhD named Mike Peasley, who helps me with research and we asked 10,000 people if they struggle with overthinking and 99.5% of them said yes. And that was before 2020 like 2020 was catnip for overthinking? So overthinking is at an all-time high, in my opinion. And so that was kind of why I said I’m going to do the research. I’m going to write the book I’m going to invest the X amount of years of my life in this topic.

Greg McKeown     

And, and why the I think brilliant title soundtracks. Why that?

Jon Acuff  

Well, so a soundtrack to me is a repetitive thought. A lot of people say a thought is like a leaf on a river. It’s a cloud in the sky. It’s a car passing on the highway. But for me, it’s a soundtrack because a soundtrack has the ability to completely change a moment, often without us really recognizing. I mean, imagine a movie that opens up on a scene of an idyllic house and it’s a neighborhood and there’s a white picket fence and kids playing. And then they play an ominous soundtrack. Suddenly, it changes everything. Suddenly this quiet house is too quiet. Don’t go in there, where if they played a positive soundtrack, okay, it’s a rom com like this is going to be fun, like something interesting. Funny and silly is probably going to happen. So I believe that the thoughts we listened to you that are repetitive or soundtracks and when they’re good soundtracks when you’re choosing them creating them, they really push you forward to action when they’re bad soundtracks when they’re broken, they hold you back. And so that’s why I use that term.

Greg McKeown    

Your opening chapter is called, I think I can do this. Why?

Jon Acuff    

Well, in 2008, I was stuck in my career, I had hit a ceiling, which was, you know, humbling to hit at 32. I think I was 32 years old. And you usually expect like a 50 to maybe I’ll hit a ceiling. But I had hit a career ceiling, and I was really stuck. And it was really kind of nerve wracking because I was a senior content designer at a company and there was no super-duper senior content designer position, I was at the end of it. And I started this blog on the side just because I felt like I’ve got some ideas that are worth sharing. And an event planner, sent me an email and said, Hey, will you come speak at our event in Edmond, Oklahoma, and I didn’t even know speaking was a thing you could do. I didn’t know people got paid for it. I didn’t know it was a craft. All I had, I had no evidence I could do it, I had no understanding of it. I just had a tiny little baby soundtrack that said, I think I can do this, I think I can become a public speaker. And that was all I had. And I fed that with tremendous action worked on that a lot did so many repetitions really grew over time. But there were so many moments where all I had was the thought, I think I can do this, I think I can do this. And that turned into I think I can write a book. I think I can start a business. I think we can move to Nashville and have this completely different life. And so it was that thought that started it. And then I got curious, what if there are other thoughts that were just as helpful? And what if I could teach other people those same things. And that’s the surprising thing to me was how few people think they can choose their thoughts. Most people think a thought is something they have not something they honed. And when you recognize that the story you’ll hear the most in your life is the story you’re telling yourself about yourself. It’s pretty surprising. And then you realize, wait a second, I have a say in that story. That’s when life gets really fun.

Greg McKeown    

I love that. One of the reasons I love this phrase, I think I can do this is that with writing the book Effortless, it was basically my aspiration for the book was that people would feel that would they would say that, you know, they read the book, I think I can do this. Because there’s almost a physical change in you. When you when you feel I think I can do this. It’s like your body relaxes, but it’s also ready to do to take action.

Jon Acuff    

100%. And there’s so much really interesting science to back that that idea up. I mean, I think that’s what I really like about your work I like about this conversation is that we’re both really positive, but we’re both really positive about the actions it’ll take to make that positive thing true. You know one of my favorite soundtracks is, it’ll be a success or a story. Like it’s going to be a success or a story. That’s why I like the title effortless, because I think it’s a promise that I know you fulfill. And I think it’s, I think that’s a rare, magical thing, where you can tell somebody, there’s a land you’re not going to believe you have access to and when you get there, you’re gonna, you’re gonna look back and wonder.

Greg McKeown    

Thank you for that. I, one of the things I love about that soundtrack you just described, tell me again, the, the you’re either going to be successful, or you’re going to have a story.

Jon Acuff    

It’ll either be a success or a story. I think it was 2010 I tried to throw a meet up like my first meetup. And I thought, there’s gonna be so many people there I actually convinced because a very charismatic, my in laws to print 1000 stickers that I was going to hand out to the masses of people there, I brought all these Skittles because I’d made a Skittles joke online that I thought was funny. And I go to this room, and I sit there for 90 minutes. And in 90 minutes, two people came and one was my friend who came to kind of encouraged me and one was a dad walked in and said, I don’t read your blog, but my daughter does call her and he handed me his phone. And I had an awkward 30 second conversation with this girl and was like, Hey, your dad said read my blog, thank thanks for doing that. And then he left. And I remember in that even in that moment, I was like, this is a story. And so I had my friend take a photo of me sitting around all these empty chairs. And I posted that, and I wrote about it and became one of my most popular blog posts I’ve ever written. Because it was a true story.

Greg McKeown    

Well and the thing that I love about that soundtrack that you’re sharing is, is that you’re really, by saying that to yourself, you’re reducing the cost of mistakes and failure, you’re making it cheap to fail, which is exactly what you want. Because it’s an inevitable part of any success whatsoever. At any level, that you will have many failures, there’s that that’s not even a question. The question is, is how expensive is that to you?

Jon Acuff    

Do it and how long do you carry it and how loud does it get? You know

I think that’s another way to say like, it got really expensive, it became a defining moment, not just a moment. You know, another one I like to say is fear gets a voice not a vote. Like I say that one all the time fear gets a voice not a vote, because when people say you can be 100% fearless, I don’t agree with that. Because I think every time you stretch yourself or try something new or grow or launch a new book, there’s a degree of fear, it always has a voice, but it doesn’t get a vote. It doesn’t get to sit at the head of the table and decide what I do and say you don’t get to do that. But I also don’t ignore it because I think oftentimes our fear is trying to teach us something so okay, I’m going to give it a voice but not a vote.

Greg McKeown    

Can you just define for us just clearly like what overthinking is?

Jon Acuff    

Yeah, overthinking is when what you think gets in the way of what you want. That’s the clearest definition, another definition that sometimes helps people say, well, how do I know if I’m overthinking versus just I like to be prepared. I like to be detailed. I’m organized and I’m you know, I’m analytical. I think that’s awesome. So here’s the difference. Being prepared always leads to an action. Overthinking always leads to more overthinking, that’s where it always ends. Being detailed leads to a decision, leads to an action leads to a launch. Overthinking leads to more overthinking. So if you sat down and said, Jon, here’s these things I actually did. Here’s the actions. I believe that’s great. It seems like you’re a detailed person. If you said to me, I’ve been writing a book for 12 years, or I’ve been working on starting a podcast for four years, I would say, you might be overthinking it, because starting a podcast shouldn’t take four years. It really shouldn’t. So maybe you’re stuck in an overthinking loop.

Greg McKeown    

One of the ideas I love, the way you put it in the book is that the solution to overthinking is never more thinking it’s to take action. I love that because when I overthink myself, or when I see other people overthinking, it is tempting to go oh well let’s go deep. Let’s and it’s like look, what do you need to take action on? That will propel you forward? It’s an interrupt a disruption to the overthinking, that’s what I think you’re saying.

Jon Acuff    

Yeah, and it’s a simple interruption. Um, you know, I like to take the way I try to write is I try to take something really complex and simplify it, and give people you know, ideas, practical ideas that can that can work with. So and, you know, example of an action could be you, you know, in the in the book, I talked about how I discovered one day, I had the worst boss in the world, and the worst boss in the world was me. I was, you know, I would set a 90-minute timer to write something. And then if I wanted to go get a drink of water, use the bathroom, I would pause the timer. And I thought if I had a boss that I worked for in an office, and I went and said, Hey, I’m gonna go use the bathroom. He’s like, hold up, let me pause the timer. Because I don’t want you stealing those 90 seconds from the company. I’d be like, this guy’s the worst boss. And so I realized all these things that I was doing like that. So I just I didn’t spend I didn’t go on a vision quest, or like a three month Silent Retreat you know like in Sedona, I just don’t have time for that. I said, what would the best boss do? Like what in that situation? What would the best boss do and I’ve had some good bosses. And so I was, I was able to make a quick list of here’s what the best boss would do. And then I had some actions I could actually take.

Greg McKeown    

100% agree with this. There’s, there’s one of the soundtracks that you talk about. It’s in the section called Mr. Rogers was onto something. But the particular soundtrack you come up with, really spoke to me felt like we were we were aligned on it. One famous quote that’s attributed to dozens of people say his writing is easy. You just open a vein and bleed. Oh the melodrama friend who was finishing a book once told me when you write you always hate your work. You always hate your book and you hate yourself. And so you said I’m going to retire those negative soundtracks. Create a new one to write my book, I had this crazy idea that writing didn’t have to suck. I wanted something simple that could set the tone for the book you’re reading right now. I needed a soundtrack for a book about soundtracks. And you chose from the from you chose something from Dorothy Parker ultimately settled on?

Jon Acuff 

So I decided and I’ll be honest with you, like part of it started. My wife, probably four years ago said, hey, you’re a jerk for the two years when you write a book, and then you’re a jerk for the two years when you sell it. And that, ain’t it? Like we’re not doing that career The current thing you’re doing isn’t sustainable in our marriage sounds like, fair enough. Fair enough. And I realized that I was getting into all these broken soundtracks, the writing is so hard, I go to the coal mine and look for words. And like, there was all this extra pressure. And I think people do that we have a real habit of overdramatizing things that are already difficult. So whenever I meet somebody that goes, I’ve been working on the book, or I go, What’s your goal, the book and they say, to prove to my dad that my job is worth it, I like that, it’s gonna be very difficult to finish that book, you have set yourself up for quite a mountain. So I decided ahead of time I need a new soundtrack. And it’s going to be light and easy. Writing this book is going to be light and easy. And then I tied it to so many different other things in my life, to kind of reiterate and repeat that soundtrack.

Greg McKeown    

Where else have you listened to the soundtrack? Where else have you used it?

Jon Acuff 

Well, the biggest thing, the Mr. Rogers part that I mentioned was I was at a running store I like to run. And that’s actually a soundtrack I’ve worked on for years when people would say, Are you a runner? I’d go I’m not a runner. I run as if there was this magical classification that made me a real runner. And I realized that’s a broken soundtrack. I’m a runner, I’ve run five half marathons, like, I feel like I’m a runner. So I’m a runner. So I was at a running store in town and they had the most ridiculous bright neon green shoes developed to like break the two hour marathon record. There’s a full carbon fiber plate like they’re insane.

Greg McKeown    

I know the shoes you’re talking about.

Jon Acuff 

Exactly. They look like what an elf would wear if he was done making like, like cookies in a tree and moved to Tron, like the universe of Tron. And so I was like, I’m gonna wear these every time I write the book. That’s the only time I’m going to wear them. I’m going to wear them as a kind of a cue. Hey, here we go. Like we’re about to write and so I put them on like Mr. Rogers changing his shoes when he got home. I told the lady at the shoe store and she looked at me like I was a lunatic and I I came up with a new sound like I don’t care if it’s weird if it works. Like I really don’t care if it’s weird if it worked, and it worked. The thing I like about soundtracks is I think, once you discover the metaphor, and kind of how it works, you, you’ll start to see it in individuals, you’ll start to see it in married couples, or dating couples, you’ll see it in families, you’ll see soundtracks at work, you’ll see soundtracks on teams. And that’s, I think, where it gets really interesting.

Greg McKeown    

Well, and this particular soundtrack, you know, spoke to me, really, because of the alignment with the whole idea of effortless, I mean, that using your language, effortless is a soundtrack. And what I have been blown away by is how many people have hard difficult soundtracks that aren’t necessary.

Jon Acuff 

No, and they’re creating them. See, I think that’s why the book is going to be a real gift is that how many people are adding chaos or adding complications or making it harder than it needs to be and don’t even know they’re doing it? And so yeah, I think the best books are invitations, the freedom, which is why if you’re able to say, Hey, here’s it doesn’t have to be that way. In fact, and I think that’s where our overlap is, I you know, I wrote a book called Finish and I was stunned how many people thought a goal had to be miserable to count. And so I’d meet people and I’d go, they go, I’m going to get in shape. I go, what are you going to do? And I’d say, I’m going to run I’d go Oh, do you like run in the Oh, no, I hate that’s how I know it’s good for me. Well, you could ballroom dance to the back. No, that seems too fun. And effortless. I’ll probably I gotta find an exercise that makes me so mad that I only do it for a week and then I give up and I think all exercises bad. Yeah, we are. There’s so much overlap between what we’re talking about. I love it.

Greg McKeown    

This particular area of overlap, I think was is like magic because I that’s one of the things I learned in listening to people about Essentialism and that, that attempts to apply it was almost disbelief that the more important a thing is, the harder it has to be. And, and it’s, I mean, your example about the exercise thing is perfect. Like, it can’t be exercise if I enjoy it, it has to be, it’s got to be tough, you know, you’ve got no pain, no gain. Tt’s not like that is never true. But are you sure you want that as your life’s soundtrack. I mean, you can adopt it if you wanted a soundtrack, but I think light and easy, might be a better soundtrack for you.

Jon Acuff 

Yeah, and what’s funny about that is you’ll start to see you just see examples of it everywhere. So another one that fits with effortless is a failure is the best way to learn. I personally feel like success that you pay attention to, is I enjoy that one way more. Like if you said to me, Jon, you can learn by winning or learn by failing miserably. I’d go you know, what I’d like to learn while also winning, if that is that available that’s available versus you know, and I saw somebody a motivational person, say the other day, you should start each morning with a freezing cold shower to train yourself to do terrible things all day. I was like, why would I do that? That’s insane.

Greg McKeown    

No, I have a funny story about that, where I was on somebody else’s podcast, and I was I do little probably irritatingly turn the tables when I’m doing that sometimes. And, and I say, Okay, well, what something essential for you that you’re under investing in. And that’s exactly the one he chose. He said, he said, cold shower, I really need to do it. It’s so important to me. And know that if I would do this every single day, I would achieve the things I want in my life. And I’m like, really, you know, like, are you sure? Are you sure you have to have that Is that necessary for the things you need to achieve in your life. And so I found it quite hard to do the rest of the coaching session with him because I was just like, every part of his body actually is sort of the way that he was talking about it really made me believe that he did not want to do this. It was this. It was like I have to. But it was like, Well, I don’t I don’t know this something like in that little story in that there’s something about a broken soundtrack to me at least Is this how you read it?

Jon Acuff 

Oh, 100% 100%? Because I don’t know where, you know, I always tell people pull the thread like, what’s the thought behind the thought behind the thought? Which is why which is what you were doing? You were saying like, well, what do you mean, like, who told you that? What do you think that’s going to unlock? Like, what does that, what does that actually mean? And see, I think sometimes it’s just, we heard something, we believe something. And then it becomes Gospel to us. And we think you know, like, that’s the but the sad thing for situations like that is by 9am, when he hasn’t taken the cold shower, he’s already listened to a Rogen soundtrack that says the rest of the day won’t be as productive as it could have been because you started with a failure.

Greg McKeown    

I’m with you on this. And the kind of soundtrack that he started to describe things like this, if I don’t take a cold shower every day, I will be a complete failure. Like that is literally the soundtrack that he has running through his day, all day, all day, every day. He hates it. He hates to take a cold shower.

Jon Acuff 

As well, he should, that’s terrible. And that’s why we invented hot water heaters. But wait a second. What does that mean? I mean, the three questions people often say okay, well, how do I even find a broken soundtrack?  Like how do I find one. And the easiest way I think, or one of the easiest ways is you write down something you want to do. You write down I want to write a book, I want to ask somebody out, I want to get a raise, I want to start a company, whatever. And then listen to the first thing you hear because every reaction is an education. So if you know if you say I want to start a podcast and you hear it’s too late, like they’re already done, like you missed your moment like that you should have started one in 2007. Like, that’s probably a broken soundtrack. And then the three questions I give people to ask about that which are also really simple is just take your loud soundtrack. Who has time to question every thought we have too many thoughts. Ask them three questions. Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it kind? Is it true, is it the thing I’m telling myself true? Is it helpful? Does it move me forward to hold me back and is it kind of myself?

Greg McKeown    

What do you do then? So somebody says, okay, yes, I found a loud soundtrack. You know, whether it’s the shower, but some, you know, whatever the loud soundtrack is that is neither true nor kind nor helpful, then what?

Jon Acuff 

Well, I mean, the book, I’d say you retire broken sound tracks, you replace them with new ones, you repeat them, so often, they become automatic. I think a lot of high performing people are afraid of losing their edge. And what happened was, they had some success with a certain approach but it’s no longer helpful. It’s no longer like, for me an example. That would be I had a business crisis once and I had to kind of get up super early and save the day. And I learned in that moment, I can function in a crisis, which is what that’s a helpful thing to know. Okay, I’ve got some self-awareness. Great. But then over time, that kind of mutated into I need a crisis to function.

Greg McKeown    

Exactly.

Jon Acuff 

And then I that was a terrible fuel. So I think there’s a lot of high performing people that are afraid to lose their edge. So they’re like, you know, I have to, I have to try to prove myself and that’s their fuel. And I just don’t think that’s a good fuel. It’s a good short term, but it’s not a great term. So I would say like, open yourself up to the idea that there’s great soundtracks out there, it can be a question. It can be a song lyric, it can be, you know, a phrase from a company that really inspires you, you know, I spoke to this company ortho. They’re a diagnostic company, and one of their soundtracks internally is because every test is a life. Like they know when you’re in a fast-growing healthcare industry. It’s really easy to start to see people as numbers. So they have a soundtrack, because every test is a life. And so that’s what I would say is open yourself up to that find some soundtracks you like they don’t have to be perfect. They don’t have to be sexy. They don’t have to be as good as just do it. And then you start to repeat them you find creative ways to kind of make them part of your life.

Greg McKeown    

One of the things I like about the fact that you use the term soundtracks is, is the idea of repetition. You are going to need to repeat to yourself the new soundtrack, many, many, many, many times, because the old soundtracks or have been listened to many, many, many times. And so you’re, you’re trying to replace them. It reminds me of an experience I had probably the most, the most agonizing experience, or at least the experience that should have been the most agonizing experience of my life, which is when my one of my daughters became suddenly very sick. And over a two-year period with an undiagnosed neurological condition, right. Okay, that’s the short of the story. And I remember feeling really tapped on the shoulder to listen to, to a particular article. It’s Gordon B Hinckley article about optimism and Thanksgiving. And I was like, I went actually totally willing to do it. But what surprised me it was wasn’t just listened to at once it was every day and almost every day through the first four months of this just absurd situation where, where, without any, any warning without any explanation, you know, her capabilities. Eve’s capabilities are just suddenly being lost every day. Instead of what is what the old soundtrack was clearly wanting me to do, which is, or, you know, why is this happening, and this is, you know, get obsessed about it, and, and to feel maybe even powerless, and so on. Instead, I’m listening to this other soundtrack, literally listening to it every day, almost every day for four months. And I felt materially changed by that, that life became lighter. You know, you talk about light and easy. It, it’s almost like, I don’t know if people will believe me now. Because I know how sort of devastating that experience is or could be. But actually, the experience wasn’t devastating. It was the word I always want to say, and I don’t use it lightly is joy, there was actually joy in that experience. And we as a family just sort of became ultra-deliberately, relentlessly grateful. You know, we got around the piano and sang, we just tried to have as much humor and in the could be in the situation. And it wasn’t that we were denying the problems at all. But there was this new soundtrack and it needed the repetition for me to be able to, I think even see it as a possibility that amidst this challenge, you wouldn’t make it worse with a bad soundtrack. You make it better with a better soundtrack.

Greg McKeown    

Let’s just again, double click on this question, what do we do to create repetition? Like, literally so someone chooses light and easy? Let’s go back to that, light and easy. You’ve given a good example would be actual physical symbol. What other symbols could a person use? Let’s just use that actual

Jon Acuff 

Yeah, let’s jump on the symbol. So a great symbol always has three things in common. A great symbol is personal, it’s visible, and it’s simple. So it’s personal, and that it’s something that matters to you. Like, there’s a lot of people right now that are listening and like that shoe thing is crazy. I agree. But that was personal to me. The second thing is it’s visible. It’s easy to see, it’s obvious. It’s not hidden in a drawer somewhere. And the third is that it’s really simple. It’s simple to use. It’s simple to engage with. And my favorite example of that is the LIVESTRONG bracelets that Nike did, like the reason they work was they were personal. No one you met if you ever met somebody wearing a Livestrong bracelet, and why do you wear that they never said I just don’t like cancer. Like the noun. I wear jewelry about diseases. Here’s my psoriasis necklace. Like they always told you a personal story. My uncle suffered from cancer. My mom suffered from cancer, cancer, the second thing they are visible, Nike could have made that bracelet grey. They could have made a beige, but they didn’t they made it bright yellow. And the third was it was simple to use. No one was like, how do you put on a bracelet, you put the arm part in the hole part, like this thing is so complicated. You just get really deliberate about going okay, I’m going to I’m going to have these symbols and they’re going to be personal, visible and simple.

Greg McKeown    

So if somebody wanted light and easy, what would another like? How would you coach me through actually finding a symbol that I could use?

Jon Acuff 

Well, so I would, I would say, okay, you know, is there you know, for me, it was shoes, I would say for you, like, it’s, you know, when you write when, you know, if you want to apply light and easy to writing, you know, like, what’s your favorite? What’s your favorite thing to write in? Like, I would say, I probably wouldn’t put on a suit. Because a suit like when I wear you know, when I dress for a speaking engagement. It’s different how I dress when I’m trying to create, like, there’s just there’s differences there because I know like, I have speaking jeans, like I only wear them on stage because I know like, it’s part of my like, okay, it’s go time. Like, once I’ve got like, I’ve been doing virtual events I wear the shoes I wear when I speak even though nobody sees my feet during a virtual event. Why do I do that? Because it’s another like, hey, it’s go time. So I’d probably go okay, is there some, is there an item of clothing? Is there you know, what, like, I have a massive feather on my desk that I found we were at a lake and it was this beautiful feather. And I was like, That’s such a great example of light and easy. So it’s on my desk. So I would say, okay, what’s something you can keep on your desk? What’s something that you know, it’s small is easy. Where’s light and easy in your calendar, we would interview your calendar, Greg would go, okay, Hey, where’s light and easy? Like, where are you doing things the hardest way possible. And we would probably try to sort some of those out. So again, the goal of the book isn’t to give you just a new soundtrack, it’s to give you a new soundtrack that leads to new actions that get you new results, because I think that’s where you really get to see life change. So we would probably take that light, uneasy soundtrack, and comb through your week, comb through your calendar, comb through your conversations.  I believe in tactical soundtracks, where you get a soundtrack, and then you go, I really want this to stick. So I’m going to be deliberate about finding places for it.

Greg McKeown    

Yeah, I love that, that you reinforce the soundtrack, not just by repeating the words, but by building them into your physical environment, into your schedule, into the decisions you make into the actions you take.

Jon Acuff 

And in my relationships, you’re like, somebody was different, like, if I, you know, if I knew there were moments where I needed, like, for instance, my dental hygienist, she is such a positive person, I went to the dentist yesterday, why this is why this is fresh to mind. But like, if I made I would say, Greg, make a list of light and easy people. And then I want to make sure you spend enough time with them. And I would guarantee 99% of people have never thought about it that way. But like, yesterday, when I got to the dentist’s office, she showed me a screenshot where she had pre ordered my new book soundtracks in August, like it comes out in April, and she ordered it last August. Then when I told her some of the ideas, she was like, Oh, my gosh, I’m getting goosebumps. So I would list her that like, when I’m at the stage of an idea where I need encouragement, I would probably list her as I’m gonna go bounce some ideas off her like, like, I would think about people that way. And so that’s how I would do it. And again, not with every thought, like, I’m not, again, we’re all so busy. nobody’s looking for a bunch of more activities to do. But I think if there’s one that’s important, and you think that that broken version is stealing a lot of time creativity and productivity, well, then it might be worth us investing a little because we’re going to get back so much time, creativity and productivity.

Greg McKeown    

Jon Acuff, it’s been absolutely fabulous to have you here. I have by some magical process two copies of your book, advanced copies, which I’m so happy I do, but it means I have an opportunity, which is to give away one copy to somebody listening right now. Advanced copy, which is that’s like special, you feel special. I felt special getting a copy of your book ahead of time. I love that. And other people can do the same. Go to What’s Essential podcast on iTunes, you’re going to review this episode. And you’re going to email me Greg@GregMcKeown.com with a picture of having done that, and I will send a copy of Jon Acuff’s superb new book Soundtracks. You’re going to hear about this book, it’s gonna make, it’s going to, it’s not just a great book, it’s going to get across the chasm, it’s going to become part of the vernacular, because it’s a better word for something we all know about. And when you have that, that something special. Soundtracks, Soundtracks!

Jon Acuff 

That is so encouraging, so encouraging. And Greg, I get to have you on my podcast soon called All It Takes is a Goal. And I’m thrilled that you’re coming on, and I can’t wait to turn the tables and, and really dig into Effortless like, it was so fun to talk a little about it today and I can’t wait to really get into it.

Greg McKeown    

I am really looking forward to doing that. Well I think we should do something else together, I don’t know quite what. We should do some sort of live event or something, because I did just find myself going because there’s such a natural overlap between these two ideas. Sometimes you’d be weird to do something like that. But I think that we’re especially where I just hit on this light and easy. It almost helped me reframe the, what I’m trying to do with Effortless. It was like, Yes, exactly. We have this old soundtrack and you don’t even know you have it. Like people seriously don’t know they have. I just got involved in a new project. In fact, it’s a really like, exciting project. It’s this cool thing. And one of the leaders on the project says, this is going to be this can be so big, it can impact millions of people around the world. It’s gonna be really hard. But it’s gonna be really worth it. And I’m like, what really? Does it have to be?

Jon Acuff 

It’s gonna be terrible, I just want to be upfront.

Greg McKeown    

It was seriously there’s a soundtrack around that that we’ve heard so often. But I have better words now having read soundtracks. Here you are proving the point of light and easy proving the point of soundtracks in the creation of soundtracks and I’m confident that I’m being prophetic here. You this is going to be the breakthrough moment that which you’ve had many breakthrough moments, but this is going to be a new breakthrough moment for you. And it’s going to be marvelous, and I’m just going to be here cheering you along all the way.

Jon Acuff 

Greg, gosh, this is this is such a fun, fun moment for me and, and I am 100% and let’s I you know, I would love to figure out something that we get to do together

Greg McKeown    

We’ll do something fun.

Jon Acuff 

I’m in.

Greg McKeown    

Jon Acuff looking forward to being on your podcast as well tell me the name again if the podcast?

Jon Acuff 

All it Takes is a Goal.

Greg McKeown    

All it takes as a goal. I can’t wait to be on that podcast with you. Everyone should go and subscribe to all it takes as a goal to have more gold of this kind from Jon Acuff, everybody go get a copy of soundtracks and give away, give away 10 more. Because we want better soundtracks. That’s what we want. You want the people in your life to have better soundtracks. That’s the soundtrack you hear from them, as well. If you want less complaining in your life, you got to help people have better soundtracks inside their own mind. This is this is what we’re learning here today. It’s been a pleasure, John, thank you for being on What’s Essential podcast.

Jon Acuff  Thanks, Greg.