28. Josh Shipp on The Teenager Whisperer

Speakers

Greg McKeown, Anna McKeown, Josh Shipp

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Transcript

Greg McKeown  

Mr. Josh, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. The teen whisperer.

Josh Shipp     

Oh my.

Greg McKeown   

The gifted, insightful action like concrete action extraordinaire. For what to do with these otherwise, teenagers in our homes, sometimes humans. And it’s great to have you both anna and I are co-hosting today specifically because we both love your work. And thrilled to have you thank you for joining the What’s Essential podcast.    

Josh    

Thank you so much. My pleasure.

Anna McKeown     

I mean, there’s no question that you are uniquely positioned to give insight to parents into their teenager’s psyche into their lives into what’s going on. And because you have a very unique story, or I don’t know if yeah, it’s very unique. And we use Will you share some of that journey with us? Yeah, sure.

Josh Shipp     

The brief version of my story is my biological mother in Oklahoma City was 17, when she got pregnant with me. And upon giving birth to me, several hours later, she sort of packed up her belongings slipped out the side door of a hospital, sort of abandoning me as a baby. And so interestingly enough, a very similar thing was done to my biological mother. And she, so I went to live with that family, meaning sort of her adoptive family. But her adoptive family was very sweet couple, but they were elderly, they were older. And they were not quite in the physical health, to take care of a baby. So I entered into the foster care system. And, you know, once I became four or five years old, even though I didn’t remember what happened to me that day, I was born in January, in a hospital in Oklahoma City, I begin to navigate my life with the burden and the baggage from that day. I’ve done a lot of counseling and still see a counselor to this day. And the thing that my counselor says about is, you know, that day you receive this message. That said Josh, whatever you do, don’t you count on an adult, don’t you put your hope in an adult Don’t you trust an adult, they’re going to let you down. They’re going to wash your hands of you. They’re going to slip out the side door on you. And so even as an early age four or five years old as I’m entering these foster homes, my strategy was to get kicked out of them as soon as possible. Because my life up until that point, felt out of my control. Someone else made a choice. I didn’t make a choice. And my mentality was never again. And so from the age of five to 14, I kept a notebook. I kept score. I kept a log I tried to get kicked out of each home quicker than the previous one. I will say 90% of these foster homes were great people wanting to help out a kid. And I took out on them something they did not do something that was not their fault. You know, I took out on them the angst of some things that I had gone through on these people who were trying to help me. Some of these homes were not great, there was physical abuse, sexual abuse, mental abuse, which I didn’t talk about, I didn’t process, I did not want to let people if. If you let people in you’re being vulnerable. And that only sort of escalated my acting out my wanting to, to great, grab the reins of control. You know, see what kids don’t talk out, they act out. And I didn’t talk to anybody about it. And so, I was just constantly acting out through my behavior, I would set things on fire, I would get suspended from school, I would do anything I could, that I thought that would sort of emotionally manipulate a foster parent to give up on me. And I felt that at least I was in control. So 14 years old, I’m entering into yet another home. And I’m just determined to get kicked out of this home as well. But these foster parents, though, I didn’t realize it at the time. They were different, not differently qualified or differently, differently trained. But the amount of patience, love, encouragement, and consequences that they established in their home was unlike any home before. Most of these homes I would get kicked out of in a couple of weeks. This home, I spent three years trying to get kicked out. And I brought some of my best stuff. And, and they would not budge, and the message was always this is not okay. Here is a consequence. Knock this off. We’re not going anywhere. We love you no matter what. The through line with this family, the Wheatamayers from Oklahoma, was consistent encouragement and consistent consequences. And, you know, thinking about the sort of work that I do now with teens and families. This is such a simple, you know, essential critical framework because the part that we’re not good at is not the one or the other, the part that we’re tend to not be good at as parents and I’m a parent myself and I struggle with this myself is the end part of it, the consistent encouragement and consistent consequences. And kids and teenagers need both because it provides structure it provides love provides those moments of this is not okay which reinforces them owning the mistake them owning the lesson, them developing sort of the desire to change themselves instead of us just wanting to change them and wishing they would want to change. But also that encouragement of okay, this is stupid, but you’re not stupid. This is a poor choice, but you are better than this choice. 17 and a half, I go to jail for writing a bunch of fraudulent checks. They bailed me out and I thought this would be the moment that they would sort of send me packing my bags. And I remember my foster dad bailed me out. I assumed I would wake up that morning in the jail cell and see my social worker coming to pick me up in the white government issued van to go to yet another foster home. But it was my foster dad. We did the hour drive home from the county jail to their home in Yukon. He said, we need to sit down and talk that was the first thing he said during this hour car ride. And I remember we sit down in the living room with and I thought All right, here we go, I finally broken these people. This must be enough. They said Josh, this was not okay, this was a stupid choice. We’re going to figure out what the consequences, but you got to get it through your thick head. We don’t see you as a problem. We see you as an opportunity. We’re not going anywhere. And we love you no matter what. And, in the moment, my skepticism, my hard heartedness, my jadedness, I wanted to laugh it off, as any teenager would from some sort of, you know, heartwarming pep talk from their parents. But I remember in that moment, my mind flashed back to all those moments, they probably should have washed their hands of me, they probably should have slipped out the door on me, they probably should have called up Patsy and said, Look, we wanted to help but we didn’t sign up for this. I thought back to all those moments. And I thought this is this is not lip service. This is not a cheesy living room pep talk. They mean this. And that was that catalytic moment for me. Now it wasn’t it was not the moment that my life changed. That would be too simplistic. That would be too fairy tale. And if we give false hope to parents out there who are living in the midst of this situation, it was not the moment my life change. But it was the moment I decided I want to take responsibility for my own life, my own choices and begin to make that change. You know being left as an infant, that is not my fault. That is sad. But this stuff I’m doing at 17. This is my fault. This is not okay, this is not cute. This is not clever. This is immature. And it’s time for me to grow up and begin to accept help.

Anna McKeown     

Wow, how long did it take for that to sink in? That they meant what they said? I’m guessing that that wasn’t the first time they’d said that. But maybe I’m wrong.

Josh Shipp     

Yeah, I circle back to my foster dad the other day because I was having some like, quite frustrating moments with our own kids. And I just need to vent a little bit and try to pick up some wisdom from him. And I remember asking him, you know that Do you remember that little pep talk he gave me after jail? He’s like, not really. I was like, well, you said something like, you know, we don’t see you as a problem. We see you as an opportunity. I said, had you ever said that before? Now he’s from Oklahoma, shape like a lowercase b big belly joyous laughter football co eagles. Yeah, Josh. We must have told you that 50 times. And I believe him, but I can say that. That was the first time that I remember it that I that it resonated with me and I think it’s because let’s go back to a consequence. You know, he, my foster parents could have bailed me out the day I got put in jail. They forced me to sleep there a night so that the weight of the situation was not prematurely lifted from me, and then the encouragement. You know, Josh, you needed to sleep there, you needed to feel that. But you’re not a problem, you’re an opportunity. And to me, this is why all of my work centers around this key idea, which is that every kid is one caring adult away from being a success story. And for me, that line is more than just a clever saying, that was my life. I was that kid. And because of one caring adult, this one set of foster parents, my life was forever, completely changed.

Greg McKeown     

What I hear you saying is that they believed in you, longer than you doubted them.

Josh Shipp   

That’s right. I mean, that’s a bit more of a positive spin than I would put on it. They were willing to be 1% more hard headed than I was. 1% more stubborn and unrelenting. With their love than I was me being an absolute jerk, and, and pain to them. As an adult, I began to become fascinated with this question, which was, did I get lucky? Just miraculous set of foster parents with some sort of skill set or personality or temperament. And that eventually led me to Harvard’s national scientific council on the developing child, which did this quantitative and qualitative analysis of, you know, is there some sort of common denominator between kids who go through adversity and turn in the wrong direction and kids who do okay and end up their own version of a success story. Is there some sort of common denominator there? And in digging into the research, I found this quote, I know it verbatim that said, every child who winds up doing well, has had at least one stable and committed relationship with a supportive adult.

And something I think about now as a parent is they did not grade their effectiveness as a parent based on my temporary behavior. I remember seeing them getting together with other foster parents with other parents. And I didn’t know what they were doing at the time, but I asked them as an adult like, would you guys do well, we get together we’d either have coffee or have a drink and we would and we would complain about you guys. And we would just let it loose. And I remember my mom saying, you know, those times where those other parents gave us perspective of like, Thank the Lord, it’s not just us. You know, and they would hear it in, in their friends who, who were parenting, but didn’t have foster kids, that they were going through these moments, and they were doubting themselves and all hell was breaking loose in the home for a particular situation or period of time. And then maybe someone in the group would have like a little sliver of like, Hey, hey, member, I was struggling with our kid with this will, like, hey, this kind of good thing happened. And so both made them feel, I’m not alone in this, I’m not the only one who struggles in this, that side of it, and there is hope, like be consistent, consistent encouragement, consistent consequences, things will not as quickly as we would like, but it will take things will turn. And that kid will internalize the lesson that you’re trying to teach

Anna McKeown     

There are two things that I mean, there’s so much in what you’re saying. But there’s two things in there that just really speak to me personally, in my journey, as a parent, and one is that feeling of inadequacy as a parent, I mean, I, you, you may have a lot of reasons and gaps in your upbringing. I mean, I was raised in a stable home with two parents and lots of siblings. And yet, I still felt so out of my depth when my children came, and I think I thought they were all going to be well, I thought I’d get them that like I just intuitively understand their who they were the personality. My first child right away, I was like, oh, who is this? Who is this person? And why is she responding so differently than I thought she would even as an infant and toddler and, and that, that need for support that need for a community and I love hearing in your book, you talk about like, one of your mindsets is you’ll want and need help. That is an area personally I think that I can definitely improve in and I really appreciate the example of your foster parents that they had this group that they had a community to vent with, to, to inspire each other to or to, you know, say just hang on things, things will work out eventually or you know, they’ll good can come from these hard times.

Greg McKeown     

We watched a show just last night in which the parents of the competitor in the baking show said the following they said, they said what we always the magic words we are, we always used to teach to our kids Well, not to my kids to our child was good management. Because if you have good management, you don’t need to be lucky. You don’t need luck. If you have good management, you don’t need luck, in the feeling of it felt, at least to us to be so focused on like the wrong thing. That we want there to be space for our children to make mistakes. We want them to get it wrong, while the risks are low. And so yes, of course, there’s a place for good management, but that pretense that we can be in control of everything. And that if we are in control of everything, good things will always come from that seems to fall apart. When it comes to parenting, your thoughts.

Josh Shipp   

I am terrible at this. This is a great example of where I can write brilliantly about this topic, and then not follow my own advice 70% of the time on it. So the advice that I give that I’ve that I follow 30% of the time and in full disclosure is it is that you’re right you have to move from controller to coach particularly as your kid enters the teenage years. This is why it’s unfair when you got a three-year-old you are mostly in are in control. And so you develop that muscle, you get good at it, you get rewarded for it, you get used to it. And it is healthy and appropriate and necessary at that time. But then as they get older, particularly as they enter in the preteen years, the controlling aspect begins to backfire begins to wear away at the relationship begins to create, sometimes unnecessary friction, and it also delays or pauses them beginning to feel the burden of things that are age appropriate, then beginning to take on the things that they need to take on that they need to fix the conversation, they need to have the person they need to call up and apologize, all these sorts of things. And this is so hard for me, because I’m controlling, and I love efficiency. So you know, my the lie to myself is, it would just be easier if I do it. You know, just let me handle this, I don’t want to sit around for them to have to kind of struggle through this, just let me take care of this for them. But that can send a subtle message of I’m not handing you this because I don’t think you can handle it. And we want to send the message of Look, what is age appropriate, I’m going to hand the problem back to you. And I’m going to do what a coach does, which means I can’t step on the court, I cannot grab the ball, I cannot step on the field, the influence a coach has is not on the field, the influence a coach has is before the game and after the game. And so for me as a parent when I’m, you know, when I when I’m not trying to control, I try to think through what are the things that I see my kids struggling with that I don’t just need to hope they get better at but I need to run drills I need to practice with my son with my daughter so that they are prepared for when they inevitably face a situation.

Anna McKeown     

You share a great story about a boy going to an amusement park and his dad going through all the possible things that could go wrong and asking his son Okay, what would you do in this situation? What would you do in that situation so that he’s prepared, which I think is just so brilliant. And then when he picks his son up, and listens to how the day went, he notices that his son kind of felt pressured to go on a certain ride and he went along with the crowd. And, and the dads like Hmm, okay, this might be a tiny little red flag. This is low stakes right now. But what can I do to help my son feel more empowered? For him to speak up, to have a different opinion to want something different and to allow that. The free throw metaphors is great and I think about all the free throws that they’re going to miss, you know, those situations that I’ve already seen with my own kids where I’m internally cringing at the clumsiness in the social interaction, but just going, Okay, it’s fine. This is fine. This is low stakes; it might be a little clumsy right now. But this is how they learn, rather than me critiquing or jumping in too soon.

Greg McKeown     

We’ve done a million things wrong with our children, I’m sure. One of the things I think that we were directionally right about. The intent was right, was that early on, in our marriage, we said, the goal is to help our children to be able to feel, recognize, and follow their own voice of conscience. And we thought about that, from the point of view that once that skillset, mindset, heart set exists, the primary job of parenting is finished. Because they can then make decisions, whether you’re there or not, you’re helping to crystallize that test in your mind, to be able to say, are they at that point? Yeah, soon, they soon we will not be there with them permanently at some level, you know, once they’re off to university, and so on, you’re really not there with them. And it’s a great test of the limits of the controlling mindset. I love what you’re saying.

Anna McKeown     

I keep hearing about how kids are going to college and really struggling at college, because they haven’t really been autonomous up till that point. And the new life of being they’re making their own decisions. Being responsible for those decisions is overwhelming to the point that it’s just they’ve they kind of crumble.

Josh Shipp     

I mean, you certainly hear a lot of stories about that and in a book how to raise an adult in that book and specific specifically, which is an excellent book talks a lot about this. It was written by a woman who was a dean of students at Stanford University, and kind of saw very similar to what you’re saying at a, you know, a well to do university where you would think were clearly students are coming in very academically prepared, but their ability to navigate everything outside of academics, is struggling because, you know, sort of like we’re talking about there, there weren’t those opportunities or as frequent opportunities at home, to truly take the wheel to have to do your own laundry to set your own budget. Schedule your own time, wake yourself up, get yourself there, figure it out if you missed this or miss that. And so, you know, this is how I think of it is before they move out before those moments where they are completely on their own. Giving them as many opportunities as possible to pressure test their own ability to self-govern.

Anna McKeown     

Do you have any examples of like, if people are listening things that they might try in their own home with their own kids?

Josh Shipp     

Yes, I mean, so let’s say you have younger kids, you know, inevitably in the neighborhood, kids are going to break something of a neighbor’s, they’re going to, you know, say something, do something hit a neighborhood kid, these sorts of things. This is gonna happen. My kids have done all those things that I’ve listed out and more, okay. With younger kids, that is a, that is a great opportunity to be that coach, which means step one, Hey, tell me what happened. Okay? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yep, your fault there. Hey, you’re going to need to go apologize to that kid and to that parent. Now, Let’s rehearse your apology right now. Okay, I’m gonna play the role of the other parent. And let me hear your apology. You know, and typically version one of it is super weak. You know, you know, a buddy of mine, his kid said, well, it’s not the most wrong I’ve ever been. And I’m like, your apology, amazing. So step one is like coaching them, like, let’s, let’s prep, let’s get prepared. And then sending them over there. You know, if age appropriate and safe, completely on their own, or worst case, you’re there. But you, you say nothing. And it’s all on them, even if there’s minutes of awkwardness, silence, these sorts of things, and then you get back home, and then you review game film. How did that go? Hey, buddy, I love the way you did that. But then I don’t know, if you notice is at the end of your apology, you kind of said, but you know, he made me mad and blah, blah, blah, you know, next time, let’s try to leave off that part. Because otherwise, you’re sort of, you know, trying to justify your behavior. So that’s an example of something, you know, sort of that coaching mentality.

Greg McKeown     

You have a section in your book about the seven things that every teenager needs to hear, will you share those with us?

Josh Shipp     

All right, here are the seven things every kid and every teenager needs to hear. Number one, I love you. Number two, I’m proud of you. Number three, I’m sorry, meaning me as a parent, we have to model self-awareness and taking responsibility. Number four, I forgive you. Number five, I’m listening. Number six, this is my favorite one. This is your responsibility. You know the thing with the neighbor, this is your responsibility. I think those seven things encompass the Wheaton Myers the encouragement, I love you, I’m proud of you, you’ve got this. The consequences.

Greg McKeown     

Another section I love, which is a whole list of things that you can do with your teenagers. I think sometimes people lacked the really tangible, immediately applicable actions they can take to build those relationships that they feel and know to be so vitally important. What are some of your favorites from that list?

Josh Shipp   

Well, I mean, for me how I modeled this and now I actually do this as a parent is I have Google Calendar alerts to remind me to take action on the behaviors that I want to do with my kids. Meaning, you know, I have scheduled and blocks, blocked out time for one on one time with my son, with my daughter. And this aspect of it is particularly hard if you’re more so wired like me, meaning you are someone who likes being in charge likes being in control. And this is something my counselor taught me when, when our son was a baby, because I was, well, particularly when I was like two or three I was struggling with, how do I bond? What do we do, and his whole thing was, you just do whatever the kid wants to do, you let them being in, you let them be in charge, you know, there’s a period of time and they are in charge and whatever you’re going to do is up to them. And I think this still holds true when your kid is eight when your kid is 10 when your kid is 15. Having those moments, where you’re investing time, where, you know, it can be on your schedule. But whatever it is that you’re doing is up to them. And so that that often means things that are the opposite of what you would choose to do in your free time. That investment of time is about moving towards, with the kid is innately fascinated by nerds out about geeks out about loves. And because you love them, investing and spending time doing those things. The truth is, I never got myself to love Legos. I never got myself to love puzzles. But I have prioritized, you know, my kid that relationship and needing that quality time over my disdain for puzzles.

Greg McKeown     

You’re saying that, that you subordinate your dislike of those things, which never change for the love You feel for your child and you do those activities?

Anna McKeown        

I just love that that council because it honors who that child is it honors them as an individual, it nurtures the uniqueness in them, even though that’s not us. So we don’t you know, I don’t love that thing. But I love you. And I want you to be able to nurture those things that make you.

Josh Shipp     

Yeah, and oftentimes what our kids most love, you know, can be things that aren’t necessarily the things that are in our wheelhouse, or can be things that we might feel like, is a waste of time and indulgent. These sorts of things. And, and certainly if it’s, you know, being used to excess there’s a valid argument for that. By doing that thing that they love, because we love them, that that relationship is strengthened through time kids spell trust, again, kids spell trust time. It’s by logging those moments, those hours through consistent, intentional investment of time that as a parent, we have any hope for influence.

Anna McKeown     

Right. That’s the essential priority is time with our kids. Great suggestion.

Greg McKeown     

Well, I absolutely love it. And I’m glad that you added that. Josh Shipp, the author of the grown-ups guide to teenage humans, but listen to this how to decode their behavior, develop unshakable trust and raise a respectable adult. It has been wonderful to have you on the show. It’s been great to be able to talk about this on air with you here but also for us to talk about these ideas and practices and stories in our own life. Not with our own children. This is essential. And we appreciate you for investing your time and expertise to helping us with it.

Josh Shipp     

Anna, Greg, an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

Anna McKeown     

Thank you.