36. An Essential Intervention with Matheus Moura

SPEAKERS

Greg McKeown, Matheus Moura

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Greg McKeown 

Matheus Are you there?

Matheus Moura     

Yeah. Hi, Greg.

Greg McKeown 

Well, this is great to have you here. Thank you for taking the time to talk.

Matheus Moura     

Oh, thank you. It’s such a pleasure to me to talk to you.

Greg McKeown 

Matheus, will you just begin by telling us your story?

Matheus Moura     

Yes. So my story begins in December of 2017, I can say I was having a very non-essentialist life was very impressive on the work. I was recently promoted to be a manager or my work. And also I was in the end of a long relationship. So have that pressure. Start to, to, to give me some weird sensations. And later on, I discovered that I was having panic attacks. I went to the doctor and took some medicines. But also I decided to change the way they were the way the way, the way that I was living. So I decided to take a month away of my work, and try to see the life with a new perspective. in that month, I traveled to Toronto to study in English for a month and had an amazing time there was so valuable for my life. And also in that time, I, I met a girl who used to live in the same city that me hear you go to bed, and she was moving to Boston, but first she was visiting some friends in Toronto.

Greg McKeown 

Where are you from? Tell us where you’re from.

Matheus Moura    

Okay, I’m from Porto Velho. It’s a city in the middle of the Brazilian Amazon forest.

Greg McKeown     

Describe what either What you see right now or just the environment that you live in.

Matheus Moura    

Okay, I’m looking through my window and I see a lot of trees and a big river called Madeira Heever. Porto Velho is a medium city. You know, we are very far away from the big cities of Brazil, like UT Janeiro, or San Paolo. And it’s, it’s a quiet city. It’s the capital of my state on Dornier. But it’s compared to other cities, it’s a quiet city.

Greg McKeown

And so you meet this girl in Toronto. She’s also from your same city. But she’s traveling as well.

Matheus Moura    

Yes, she was moving to Boston because she has family there. Her name is Diana. And we met there. And when I came back to Brazil, we were still in touch. So when I came back, I was really decided to take a time away from Brazil, like doing something else in the world. I wasn’t loving my work anymore. And I wasn’t decided to take the life that I was leaving that time. So I started to talk with some professors have of Canada. And we had that professor from University of Ottawa, who became interested in my research. So I months later, I traveled back to Toronto, to Ottawa as well. And I decided to go to New York City to meet Diana. We spent four days together in New York. And then I came back to Brazil again. And months later, weeks later, sorry. She called me and she said, Well, I tested five times for pregnancy here. And pretty sure I’m very pregnant for right now. So she, she was pretty decided to come back to Brazil. She wasn’t loving to live in in Boston anymore. So she traveled back. We started our family together. And later on, we discovered that the baby that we were waiting was a girl named Elena. And I think when she came back and I and I started to see the belly growing up, that sense of responsibility was growing up inside me again, I started to work a lot again, feeling the anxiety And I remember I was very focused on the work. So let me see, I was traveling a lot because of the work. There are some villages here from both value. There are small village like fisherman villages. And I was traveling to there, because of the work. And the village are so small and so rustic, they don’t even have phone signal. And you just can go there by boat. So it’s like eight hours straight by boat. When I came back from one of those CDs, days later, Diana and I went to the doctor, because she was starting the ninth month of pregnancy, 35 weeks of pregnancy. And we went to the doctor to schedule the birth of Elena. When we got there, the doctor started to do a lot of exams. And we can see in her face that something was wrong. She found a undetected disease. So we left the clinic went straight to the hospital. And Diana went straight to the surgery room. One hour later, the doctors called me in a private room. And they said, Yeah, your your girlfriend is fine. Your daughter was born. But she’s sick. She’s an anemic there’s something wrong, we are trying everything. But you have to prepare yourself because she could die today. Well, in that moment, I, you know, all my life started to pass through my eyes. I was I started to question myself, where was I was working so much. I didn’t realize that was coming. And I think I was trying to blame myself to be so away of my family. And well, we lost Elena in that very night. So sorry. Thank you. As you can imagine, I again, decided to change my entire life. With I don’t know, within new philosophy of life, I was trying to find some meaning. And then I remember I was reading some storybooks in that time, but also I was trying to find my creativity. Again, I was reading the artists way by Julia Cameron. And in that book, Judah says that you have to meet your interior artists, at least once a week. So I was visiting a bookshop, that that is also a coffee shop here in my city. And trying to write something trying to, to, to find some pleasures. But it was really hard to write something in that time try to align my ideas. And I remember one specific day, I was selecting books to buy and I was holding like five or six books in my hand. And I came across with a book called essentialism. I don’t know if you know this book. It’s from Greg McKeown. And it’s a great book, you should try. That word essentialism grabbed my attention, because I knew the concept of minimalism. So I started to read your book immediately. And right in the beginning, I saw this your story about the meeting that you had the day that your baby was born. And I when I was reading that I was thinking this guy could be me because I, I probably will will do the same on mass before. So I was really in danger fired off with your book. And I remember I studied the book. I didn’t just read a study it took some notes and tried to apply everything in my life and it was really Amazing to read something like that, because it was a way to, to guide my life. Again. I think this is the, my testimonial about essentialism.

Greg McKeown     

What it did for you is it helped you to take control of your decisions of living by design. Not by default, not by what else is going on around you. It sounds like it gave you permission, and also some principles and practices to really do what you felt was the right way to live life.

Matheus Moura    

Yes, precisely. I, when I was reading, I was linking with all of the things that I was doing my work, like saying yes to everything that my boss was asking me. I was trying to be a manager that he was trusting on me to do to be so I was trying to, to, to what I was trying to be the best manager that the department had. And but I was I wasn’t feeling porpoise it on that I was trying just to be someone else, someone different from materials from before I was, I was a simple engineer. But now I’m a manager. So I have to behave like that. So I was saying yes to all that meetings, all that extra time jobs. And it wasn’t truly for me to be in that. And, and when I was at home, I was I could just think about the next day, and the checklist, and the schedule that I had to choose to be in. And I think my life was losing the meaning that I was supposed to do.

Greg McKeown   

The job of manager was consuming all of your time outwork. But also all of your time when you weren’t at work. Because that’s where your mind was. You’re just thinking about the job all the time. Instead of thinking about what you felt inside was the right thing to do with your life.

Matheus Moura    

Yes, precisely. And there’s a lot of authors that say, you can only find happiness in the present moment. And I think I was leaving, always in the future. Always thinking about the next thing, the next thing the next day, the next week, and I couldn’t find happiness. I was, I remember, I had this reflection when I was in Toronto. Because I was leaving the present day, every single day I was trying to, to enjoy my days there on English classes, or I don’t know what bars but I was leaving the moment. And when, when, when I came back to Brazil, and I started to work again, I was missing that. That sensation that being myself being the person who leaves in the present. And that, that kind of that kind of way of thinking I think causes me anxiety. And that was the source of my disease, I guess.

Greg McKeown     

Know what you’re describing when those periods of life. When you fully hear now you feel more alive. You are more alive. Because you can pay attention to what’s happening. you’re experiencing it now. And so you can bring all of your intelligence and creativity to this moment. So you can make better choices. You can make different choices, choices that feel more like you. And you touch that. In Toronto, you could feel that richer, more abundant life. But that other word you used really grabbed my attention, disease that you felt that you had before a disease inside of you. That always kept you away from this moment. It almost I mean, it actually sent you into panic attacks, but later, the same habits produced another set of problems for you, you’ve had these two wakes up calls. But I’m interested that you call it a disease.

Matheus Moura    

Yes, I really meant that, because I think it’s, it’s everything, it’s, to me, it’s a disease. If you if you live focuses just on your work, and you have no time for a family, and also to your hobbies. The wife needs an adjustment. You can you can’t leave that way for too long. Like sprinting, sprinting all the time. Like if you are in a running, you have to sprinting all the time. If you don’t do that, you won’t finish your race. So it causes me I was always tired, I was always without patience. I was always away of the present moment. And I remember when I was reading your book, there’s a lot of notes on my, one of my notebook, quoting your phrases, and I usually writes in black ink, and in write in red ink, sorry, I took some personal notes, linking to things that are happening in my life. So I remember that I had to stop doing that. Because it wasn’t, I couldn’t read properly the book because it was talking too much thinking about things about work and things about their head to do. So I decided to read it and then coming back and read again, just the highlights and then deciding the plan to change that that situation.

Greg McKeown     

First, it was hard even to concentrate enough to read. You had to really be deliberate and saying okay, I am going to read this.

Matheus Moura    

Yes.

Greg McKeown     

Otherwise, I will be pulled back immediately into the noise of work. But you did that you made that deliberate choice. You made a trade off?

Matheus Moura    

Yes, I did. And I remember I I think I’m the guy, you at least on the Brazilian version of your book, there’s a table that says when you are non-essentialist. And when you are essentially under always then known essentially this guy. I was reading that and say, Oh my god, Greg knows me because this is me all the time. And I started to do like a plan to change, you know, so I, I took a lot of actions to change that creating time and space in my agenda to be present to be with my family. And I felt that I was recovering myself from that noisy life that I was having.

Greg McKeown   

What specific changes did you make?

Matheus Moura    

Well, considering that I didn’t have I didn’t have the clarity to decide what was essential for me. At least accepting of course family but in the work I knew that A lot of things, the major part was no essential to me. So that part of exploring my life was really, really quick, it was fast to do because I knew what, what I had to eliminate. So the second part, I started to eliminate all the projects that doesn’t fit me. And I decided to say no, but explain to my boss and to my colleagues, why I wasn’t involved in that anymore. And they understood immediately, I think the loss of my daughter helped me to justify the decisions that I was taking that time and I was barely forcing myself to do things that I like biking, and running, and reading. So I was creating space of my life blocking my agenda to have some time, quality time, if you will. And I the effects of those decisions appeared immediately. Like, in days, I was feeling better, less stress it and I can say healthy.

Greg McKeown   

It’s like you became quite bold, that that level of loss, that heartbreaking. Loss of your daughter just freed you from feeling you have to do what everyone else thinks you ought to do, or what everyone else seems to be doing. And so you went and had these conversations with your manager with your colleagues, you actually just went to explain to them. This is what I should be doing. This is the these are the projects I should be working on these ones I don’t think I should be working on. You change your behavior in your own life, to make time to exercise to to do things that were meaningful, and also with family. And the combination is that in a very short period of time, you seem surprised how quickly you felt different and restored and renewed.

Matheus Moura    

Absolutely. And it’s I was analyzing debt is so hard. On the beginning to do that. I was scared about saying no to people. And I was scared of the consequences that I that actions could do. But I decided that I had to try at least trying to say no more often. And you say in your book that at least people can. I don’t know judge you but then they start to respect your decisions. And it happens, right as you write it on the book, because it was everything you said, my boss, the beginning, he asked me some origins meetings, like from in extra times. And I was I remember was saying, No, I can’t go there because I have to go to the doctor. Oh, no, I can’t go there because I have something else scheduled. And he said yes. But you’re a manager. You have to be there. And I said, I’m a manager but I’m not a philanthropist. I have a life outside. So I said to him that I wasn’t available all the time. I mean since Yes, I understand. Have a life outside. And I have if you asked me earlier, I probably could be the I could be there, but I can’t cancel the compromise that I have. So I’m sorry. And in the beginning he was mad, mad, I mean, angry. But then I, I felt like he started to respect me more.

Greg McKeown     

I think a lot of people listening to this, feel the same fear you’re describing. They feel that if they were to push back and say no, or to even just push back and explain, I already have a commitment. So I can’t do that. They think, Oh, I just be fired. Or they just I don’t know, they just fearful of it. It’s not even like they know what they think would happen. It just feels too awkward. Too scary. To even attempt it. What gave you the courage to have those conversations, even though you felt fear? Well,

Matheus Moura    

I think I didn’t have much to lose, because I was feeling awful. And I remember I was thinking, Well, I have to try to change. And I identify that, that kind of situations on work. Were the source of those. The source of why I was feeling in that way. So I couldn’t change my life. If I if I didn’t talk to the people in the work and modify my posture there. So I thought I was thinking, well, it’s the only way. It’s the only path to the freedom of my time. And to feel better. I have to face it. So I think that was the acreage, the way that I changed it.

Greg McKeown   

I love that question. Like, what do you have to lose? This is already making me miserable. This is already burning me out. This already is sucking up all of my family time. I don’t want this life. I want a different life. So what do I have to lose from at least trying to do life differently? If the way I’m doing it isn’t working for me personally, it’s not working for my relationships, it’s not producing great results at work. Why not try the essentialist path? The non-essentialist one is the worst. Yeah.

Matheus Moura    

I think it’s, it’s hard to be in the cycle of essentially. It’s like, the PDCA that we have on project manager. What you have to plan you have to do you have to check and take action. I don’t know if you know that cycle. But to the essentially this concept is the same you have to be aware of those decisions that you take every single day. Because that happened to be the time and, and the needs for the work and the people that live around you. They start to  grab your attention and  then grab your time and kidnap your agenda. So that’s why I sometimes read again, the notes that I took in that time and I already read your book three times. Because there’s something new there’s something always new to learn depending on the life that you are leaving depending on the time that you are leaving. So you need to protect your time you need to protect your life in that, in that context.

Greg McKeown     

I love this idea. And this reminder for all of us that we need to protect life that if we believe that life is precious, then it must also be protected, is worth being careful with it. And not using it up reactively and thoughtlessly and frantically. And all in the name of just that’s how people normally do it. That’s how managers are normally expected to work in your company. That that isn’t a good enough reason. To make choices like that is not enough of a reason. To do life that way. And listening to you, I feel inspired myself to, to reevaluate, to remember that life is a choice. And though we can’t control the consequences of our choices, we can take responsibility for them, take control back and make choices more carefully and thoughtfully. And that sometimes when we do that, we even give other people around us permission to reevaluate and rethink the way they’re making choices.

Matheus Moura    

Yeah, that’s really the thing, the thing that I was thinking when I told you, and I think I learned the lesson, that time, I think I’m not going to be the same anymore. After, you know, leaving that horror movie, of losing my   daughter, but also being blind to the situation. To prove that last December, one, one year ago, we had an amazing new that Diana was pregnant again. And in that time, I remember that I decided to be more present to leave that properly. And, of course, I spent most sparked off this year at home. But I had a lot of work to do as well doing home office. And I could I can say now that I leave the waiting of our son, Leonardo. That was born September.

Greg McKeown

Congratulations.

Matheus Moura    

Thank you. I can I can remember much more comparing to Elena’s pregnancy. So I remember when I when I sent you the message I was typing on my computer, and it was sometimes stopping and looking at him and say and say yes I’m grateful for taking that decision of changing my life because I had a lot a lot to lose. I could lose a lot. Not paying attention of what I was leaving.

Greg McKeown     

That’s really beautiful description that imagining you there pausing and looking at your son and love imagining that now. But also now the flip side phrase I have a lot to lose. It’s such an interesting idea that if we’ve lived away of the non-essentialist, what do we have to lose, we’ve given up the most important things in our life for things that are less important. So what’s to lose by trying to change it, we’ve already given up and sacrifice the things that matter most to us. Whereas in on the other hand, once we choose the way of the essentialist, we have a lot more to lose, because now, we are investing in our health, and our most important relationships and our most important friends in the unique contribution that we want to make beyond those relationships, as well, and we have the precious things. And that’s what that moment means to me, as I listened to you is, ah, now, I have some of the fruit of essentialism. I don’t want to lose this, I want to protect this. I’m so glad I’ve invested here.

Matheus Moura    

And if you think how much we could last, when we, when we weren’t aware of that we were living on a non-essential with life. I mean, what we could be experiencing. I think we have to open our eyes and trying to see the life with this new perspective. Leonardo, my son always, always starts to cry when I grab my phone and text to someone, I think he doesn’t like phones. So he’s my reminder to be present in that moment. Sometimes I’m with him. And as soon as I take my phone, he immediately starts complaining and also crying and I say, okay, okay. You want, I’ll be here present with you. I’m not, I’m not allowing myself to be distracted. I’m focusing just on you. So it’s, it’s a reminder of being present all the time.

Greg McKeown     

That’s a another powerful visual, to imagine your son somehow aware, even at his young age, whether you’re really there or not. Whether your attention is with him or not. They do notice our children. I know that I need to be more present and be more of an essentialist myself. I once went on an extended vacation all of us as a family. And we went to a country where the we were going to be out in the jungle, it wasn’t Brazil, but where we were there was no internet in the home where we were going to stay. And we could have paid extra to have the internet. But I wanted to be present. And we all wanted that. So we didn’t get the internet package. And so for two and a half weeks, there was no internet in our lives. And we still talk about that time. My children still talk about that time. It was so present when we were together. We were playing together when we would go off and travel and see things do think they can really tell the feel the difference. And it’s a powerful idea that that they notice even starting that young. What would you like to say in conclusion for other people who are at different stages on the journey? Maybe someone’s listening to this. And they want to get out. Or they don’t want to be a non-essentialist anymore and a non-essential life. But they’re afraid. Or maybe they want to escape, but they feel they have a lot to lose by asking new questions and pushing back on their manager or changing their habits. What would your final words, be to them?

Matheus Moura    

I think the problem sometimes isn’t just you don’t have time for yourself. But I think the problem it’s the amount of time that some work or some activity requires from you. And also, sometimes it’s the importance that you give to something for me, was getting not to perceive what was noise and what was really fundamental in my days. So when I realized that I knew that that lifestyle wasn’t bringing me to my objectives. So what I can say is, you have to first stop for a while and decide what is the main goals in your life? And, and then you have to analyze if you are, if everything that you’re doing it’s, it is guiding you to there? Because if don’t, maybe you are just, I don’t know, losing your time.

Greg McKeown     

Yeah, what you’re saying is that there’s always a really big downside to non-essentialism. And that is the opportunity cost of something really important and essential. And that, figuring out what that is, and focusing on it. and evaluating every other decision in life, about whether it’s helping to get you to that end, is a great way to think about your decisions. It’s one decision that makes 1000. So that you can make sure that every choice reinforces and takes you towards the things that matter most. And so that we aren’t sacrificing those things, without really knowing that we’re sacrificing them giving up something valuable precious. For things far less valuable and trivial in comparison. With us, it’s been a real pleasure to talk to you today. I know I speak for everybody else who’s listening. It’s humbling to hear of your story to benefit from to benefit from your wake up calls, from the painful experiences to and were in your debt for sharing them. We’ve all made mistakes. Every person listening to this has valued things that weren’t valuable. Even though their stories are different to yours, we all relate. We’re all in this together and to hear both parts of the story that before and now the After the wiser, nefarious in this second act of your story. And for all of us listening to this, we’re interested in your next act, the third act, the next big part of the story for you, and also for us. What can we do now that we’re waking up? What can we do now that we remember that we can design our lives around what’s really essential, instead of just letting it be led by the non-essential stuff around us? What is possible? If we ask what’s essential? and start to eliminate everything else? Matheus, thank you for being on the what’s the central podcast today. Thank you.

Matheus Moura    

Thank you, Greg. It’s a huge pleasure to me share my story and talking to you. Thank you.