148: Agreeing vs. Understanding with Matthew McConaughey (Part 1)

Greg McKeown:

Welcome. I’m your host Greg McKeown. I’m the author of two New York Times bestsellers, Effortless and Essentialism. And I’m here with you on this journey to learn together how we can make life better.

Have you ever found yourself taking sides in a conversation where you were trying to win the argument? You’re gathering all the evidence to support your side and the other person is getting defensive and you can feel the emotion rising in you.

What if we could create a space between agreeing and disagreeing?

Today I’ve invited Matthew McConaughey back to the show. He needs no introduction. He’s an A-list Hollywood star. My personal favorite movie that he’s in is Interstellar, but there’s a lot to choose from. You can list to our first conversations back in episode 48 and 49 and we’ve stayed in touch since then. In short, he’s one of the most fascinating communicators I have ever met or worked with, whether in his book Green Lights or in his passionate work after the shootings in Uvalde. He is raw, he’s real. Let’s begin.

Remember to teach the ideas in this podcast episode to someone else within the next 24 to 48 hours of listening so that you can learn and they can learn and we can grow together.

Greg McKeown:

McConaughey, welcome back to the podcast. How are you? 

Matthew McConaughey:

Doing pretty good, man. Can’t complain at all. Yeah, that’s stuff to look forward to. Family’s healthy, wife still likes spending time with me. I still like spending time with her. I like my own time. Most of the time, we’re good. 

Early morning for me, I’m on my first glass of tea. I’m like going, man, I’m pretty good, man. I slept good last time. I got my nine hours of sleep. I look at my essentials when I wake up in the morning. My kids are healthy. They had a sleepover last night. They got no school today. They’re getting an education. I had a nice breakfast. My wife made me tea this morning. We had a good morning together. The house was quiet. My mom’s in the house still sleeping. I’m like, it’s Thursday. I was like telling my wife this morning, I was like, Man, the weeks gone by. Well, when you get to Thursday, and you go, Ooh, we’re past the first half of the work week, and this feels like I’ve already put in a solid good three days. Hey, the weekend’s coming, what’s the plans? I don’t know. That’s where I am.

Greg McKeown:

Yes, I hear you. You’re really just getting going in the morning, and things are in a good place for you. I’m going to just jump in with something here. So I was reviewing Green Lights, and I came across a story in there that I thought was really interesting, and it’s when you were in Africa. 

Matthew McConaughey:

Yes. 

Greg McKeown:

And you’d sort of received, let’s say, a serious lesson when you were part of a conversation where there was an argument between two men, and you found yourself sort of taking sides, and then they criticized you. Both of them criticized you. Tell us a bit more about that.

Matthew McConaughey:

So, I think I remember the story you’re talking about. We’re in Timbuktu. I’ve just come back from hiking through the desert. I was with these two intellectuals, Malian men both around, I don’t know, young twenties, mid-twenties, and my guy. And we were sitting at a table just ordering our dinner, second floor of the one hotels in Timbuktu, and around came this very pretty young lady. She was kind of going by each table, kind of giving an eye. And as she came to our table and the table was like, No thank you. The two guys started getting in a conversation about, well, one, as a Muslim woman, she’s young. She shouldn’t be doing that’s not responsible of her. And the other one was like, Well…

I listened to this conversation, these two go back and forth. And when I got a gap of about five, 10 minutes in their conversation, I decided to put my voice into the side of what I happen to agree with a man here that you know what? She’s young, healthy, seemed to have all the abilities about her. Maybe she flat turned in her cards too early here. And as I was taking that person’s side, that person, the one who was arguing that no, she should not be doing this, jumped me and said, “It is not about right or wrong. It is, do you understand.” 

And it shocked me to put my butt back in the chair a little bit deeper to go, Well, I was arguing the right or the wrong of that. I thought that’s what they were arguing,  the right or the wrong. And it’s, you see it it in European conversations, especially stereotypically the Italians, they’re very demonstrative. You think they’re in a fight, and they’re like, No, they’re actually talking about how much fun they just had doing something and that’s what these two were doing. 

And then he threw out another line, the other guy threw out another line. What was the other line that he threw to me? Africans throw those proverbs that are non-negotiable.

Greg McKeown:

What you said is this. What you wrote is you recognized in this a different way of communication than what Americans are used to, one base not on trying to win arguments but on trying to understand the other person. 

Matthew McConaughey:

Well this opens up a lot of what I’d love to continue to talk about. And I want to come back to this, but I’m really big on unpacking the word admittance. Right now we need to admit some things before we are so quick to judge things today. I’d love to judge. We love to disparage the opposite and vilify the opposition. But yet we have a lot of things we have to admit. Like the lies we tell ourselves, the lies that we listen to, that we give credence to and give truth to for our own entertainment and say, Well I, I’m going to go and believe that’s true. I’m going to act like that’s true when we know it’s a lie. So what I got from that was, and I’m guilty of this too, and I like to say this is something I’m also trying to practice. When I say we, I’m including me, I’m not talking to just everybody. I’m including me when I’m saying this.

The right and the wrong. Okay? We need to discuss right and wrong. There is right and wrong. But that judgment gets ahead of our admitting what might be true sometimes, which is a greater thing to understand, just the truth of a situation before we start getting moralizing the situation and getting moralistic about a situation. And I have to be reminded of that all the time because I go moral. I go moral. My great teacher Penny Allen, my great mentor of 19 years, would always go, “Quit, Matthew. Get off your high horse of moralizing or wrong. The big question is true or untrue.”

And she was always right. And it’s the thing we do need to answer, I think before. And many things that we approach before we go into the moralizing of right and wrong. Because the moralizing of right and wrong quickly becomes exclusionary, quickly excludes the other. I said disparages and vilifies the opposition. And you are not having a conversation. We see it in the world today. We see it in politics. We see it in people all over. That’s where we are right now. We are not admitting, well, let’s just say, okay, if I’m a Republican or a Democrat going to look at the other side, we immediately go to vilify the other side. 

Well, let’s end that conversation. Let’s also admit you may have those opinions. Let’s also admit and say out loud and share what about that party’s beliefs are assets to you. Do you say, now I do like this about ’em, I do like that the left has this empathy and this understanding, and I do like that the right really is fiscally responsible, whatever those things are. And let’s admit those in the same conversation because we don’t do that. And that’s one example.

Greg McKeown:

One of the things I love is this idea that there is a space between agreeing and disagreeing. And in that space is our ability to understand and in our ability to understand is every other productive conversation, any chance of any progress. And it seems to me that this space, it’s almost like people don’t know it exists, but somehow the polarization just is removing it even as an option. And I think that’s as dangerous or more dangerous than any of the other issues people are disagreeing about. Your thoughts.

Matthew McConaughey:

Well yeah, look, we all want to win, and we want to win right now.

I want to win this argument right now. I want to get off this Zoom call going, I won. But it’s just human nature. I don’t really, but that’s what we do. We get in a conversation, and we discuss two things, and we immediately go to how do I win? Well, if you’re immediately going to how do I win this conversation, you’re playing a short game. 

Look at the immediate gratification we get from consumerism. We go out and get certain things to win, or we win a certain moment, and we feel good. Where do we feel like we win now? We mostly feel like we win when, if again, I can disparage your point of view if it opposes mine. Not win, not sell my vision, but just debunk yours and say and improve yours to argue yours to not be worthy, then I will be like, Oh, it’s the only thing I write in the book about we cheer more loudly when our opponent misses the shot than we get happy when we make the shot.

It’s a short-term victory for us. And it’s not a true victory. It’s not a long-term victory. It doesn’t fill us up, and it lasts a little bit. It’s the joke at the party where you talked out of school about somebody who wasn’t there. Everyone laughed there, and that was really funny. But they all walked away, disrespecting you a little bit more, and they lost respect for you. Because they were like, Jesus, does that son of a gun talk about me like that when I’m not here? 

You won the moment, but you lost the long-term war. You lost trust in the future. You lost respect. You lost friendship. You lost people looking out for you. You lost goodwill. So it’s a short-term victory that we’re all looking for. And again, we look for it in the conversation all immediately. I do it. I think most people do it. We go, wait a minute, we’re in a discussion. We have two different points of view, fight or flight. I got to think about how to win this thing. And that’s what gets in our way of what I hear you saying, and I agree with. That’s what gets in our way. Instead of going, No, don’t play the winner game. That’s what I was told in Africa. It’s not about the right or wrong. We’re trying to understand each other here. There’s not a win-loss in the understanding in the short game, in the conversation.

Greg McKeown:

And you put it this way in another quote I love from the book is “to lose the power of confrontation is to lose the power of unity.”

Matthew McConaughey:

Bingo.

Greg McKeown:

If we stop having the ability to talk with each other about hard subjects, about where we disagree, it just feels like it’s already over. It’s like whatever. We can’t do anything if we lose that ability.

Matthew McConaughey:

There’s no game.

Greg McKeown:

There’s no game.

Matthew McConaughey:

So we got to buck up and get the courage to play the game more so than we do.

Greg McKeown:

Well, I think it is about courage too. The courage to listen. I think we stop listening to people because we don’t want to change. And so the fear of losing our own ground means we don’t want to even engage in the conversation or in even the confrontation. What if the founding fathers had not been willing to have a confrontation with each other? It’s over before it even began. We wouldn’t even have a country to start with.

Matthew McConaughey:

It doesn’t begin. You’re right. I mean, it doesn’t begin. 

Look, and I’m guilty of that too. Oh man, I love to know. I love to be in the know. I love to know what I know and test it and go, man, that works and I’m going to stick to it, and I’m riding that horse. And then, if you disagree, I’m going to stick to it. Instead of going, No, this other alternative, this other example that doesn’t fit my little world. It also can be true, can also be an additive. 

Now I have to ask myself in mid-conversation many times, McConaughey, do you have the courage to listen to this alternative point of view and go? But what’s hard about it is, like you said, and it happens to me, I sometimes don’t want to because I’m like, oh, I got to unpack. I had it all crystal clear. It was all working that way. I’m not ready for an amendment. Oh man, hang on. I’m not ready. I don’t have room in my brain to compartmentalize it, add something else to that, a subset to that theory, hang on. And that’s just fatigue or lack of courage to do so.

Greg McKeown:

Yeah, but that’s interesting. You just made a connection that I think is really important. And that is perhaps just the general overwhelm and overload and exhaustion that people are in. Beyond just the polarization of social media and all that we normally point to. But just if you’re overwhelmed, you’re like, I don’t have any mental space to have to rethink my life the way that you might see it and so on. And it’s like an impatience born of overwhelm that I think is nontrivial to what’s going on.

Matthew McConaughey:

But let’s, also on that, let’s admit that that’s okay. Let’s admit, gosh, dammit, man, I’m tired. How many times we get with our kids? Yes. I’m trying to explain it to you, but man, it’s nine o’clock. I’ve been up since six. I got to get up at 5:30 tomorrow morning. I am beat dead dog tired man. Why? Because I said so. I don’t have time to explain it so you can understand. Because I said so. I’m your father. I’m your mother. I’ve been around here 50 more years than you. I’ve gained the experience. We’ll talk about the why tomorrow. Right now, go to bed. 

It’s real. That’s real. We don’t need to tell ourselves. Oh, so feel bad about that. You were supposed to stay up till daybreak if that was the time it needed to explain it. No, it’s an understandable thing. I’m exhausted. Overwhelmed. That’s enough. 

So let’s admit that. That’s okay. Let’s not judge that. Let’s not pounce you and I right now on going, That’s right. That person needs more courage. That’s right. You better find the fortitude to wake back up and engage in that conversation. Let’s first admit and go, Sometimes we’re just exhausted, dude. Like you said.

Greg McKeown:

Well, and I think that if I use the word admit that you’re using, it’s like understanding yourself is part of creating this space for understanding. I mean, it’s not just understanding the other side and wanting them to understand us. It’s also, I mean, it is a type of grace, but it’s space to say, Well, let me be honest about where I am and let me even figure out where I am and not judge myself harshly and whether I’m being right or whether I’m being wrong. It’s like, let’s just understand where we are, I think is part of this special space that I think is hard to get now.

Matthew McConaughey:

Well, and yeah, I think look, the two reciprocate, there’s the old meet somewhere where they are, you know, I hear that, and this makes a lot of sense, and you understand where they’re coming from or understand what their day might have been or what their point of view is and why it might be. Yeah, very true. Got to. But I think you’re exactly right. To come back to the selfish side, you don’t do that. You got to take the time to understand where you’re coming from, and that’s just give ourself the credit. Admit that we have to give ourself the credit to try and understand where we are or to admit that, you know what? Don’t know right now. I’m on why my differential split wobbly legs. Not sure right now. Probably shouldn’t be driving heavy machinery today. That kind of thing when we’re going, and I’m just trying to, there’s certain days where, hey, what’d you do, man? 

Dude, I just tried to connect the dots. Nothing special today I did. I was no more than a duct tape guy today. You didn’t want me to use anything. Not even battery-powered. I woo. It was a tough one.

Greg McKeown:

I love the idea of a connect the dot day. I mean, we say mental health day, but that connect the dot day is a different way of thinking about that. And actually, it makes me think there are green lights, right? There’s the book that you published, and I think are proud of, and so on. And then there’s the book behind the book and all the books behind the book that is all of these journals. And it seems to me that this has been a serious part of your connecting the dot process. Like you, without your journals are a different person than you are today. That’s my read of it. That this has been a big part of connecting the dots and so on. Am I reading that wrong?

Matthew McConaughey:

No, you’re not reading that wrong. There’s no way I’d be as good of a friend of myself as I am right now without my journals. That’s what they were. It’s an expression of a Socratic dialogue, but getting it out of the head and actually putting it on paper.

Greg McKeown:

 So you can understand, so you can see it.

Matthew McConaughey:

So I can look in the mirror. That’s my mirror. That’s anybody’s mirror who journals honestly. And it’s not a mirror that makes us look like a circus mirror that makes us look more out of shape than we are or more messed up than we are. And it’s not one of those mirrors that’s on Beverly Hills and the Gucci store that makes you look three inches taller and perfectly, more perfectly fit either. It’s an honest mirror. And then to go back, and I think in writing the book, the exercise of that was the dare to go back and have a look.

Greg McKeown:

That’s different.

Matthew McConaughey:

That’s scary. Woo. And I did not like everything I saw. I was embarrassed. I talked to you about this last time we talked. It was, oh geez, dude, there’s places where I was arrogant, thought I was a know it all, and look at me now and go, oh my gosh, no. But again, looking at it and going, well, at least you had the arrogance at a certain time to get that arrogance. That false arrogance gave you the confidence to put yourself in positions and take risks, Matthew, where you ate crow and learn good lessons and did evolve. So don’t be boohoo in the, let’s admit that was okay. That was part of growing up. There were also times I was so lost and confused. I’m like reading, looking back at myself, going, Dude wake up, and going, No, you wouldn’t be able to say wake up now unless you went through that then.

So it was tough duty looking back. And then part of that and using the word admit, and I’m just now realizing this now, is I was able to admit that all of those are connected. It’s a way to get, It was a way for me to get reconnected to my past. And again, you talk about looking back and connecting the dots,  where it’s all a mystery going forward, but it’s a science looking back. The dots connected to how the heck I got to right here. Which, when you connect the dots of our lineage from the past to now, whether it’s talking about what did we do last night. What did we do when we lay down and get horizontal at night and go through the day? Or what do we do when we wake up and just connect the dots of what our goals or plan are for that day? It can be short-term. It can be the next hour if you want it to be. But you connect those. Well, the future, it’s not like you know what you’re going to do. It’s just, it’s more clear that you created the weather, and whatever comes, you’re ready to call audibles. If change does come in it, you’re just more prepared for it because you have an idea where you come from.

Greg McKeown:

Well, I think it creates a narrative. If your past is confusing enough, then I think it’s hard to extrapolate how the story goes. I mean, if we’re reading the first volume of a book and all of it’s just all over and confusing and absent, you don’t know where you are. You’re lost in the present. Therefore it’s hard to read the future. So the writing of this in the past, I think is, and then reviewing it is clear. 

But I want to double-click on something because the word you used about your journal was honest. And that’s a nontrivial word. I mean, I’ve kept a journal for 11 years. I don’t think I’ve missed a day in 11 years. So I’m a serious journaler. But sometimes I think about it, and I go, Is this interesting? Are you being open enough, raw enough? Is there enough here to actually get clear and get all that junk out so that you can look at it? And I’m curious about that word honest. Have you always been just very honest in your journals? Is that how you started them?

Matthew McConaughey:

No. Yeah, honest to the extent that I’ll completely bullshit myself, but I would know I’m bullshitting myself, I make out of a lemon to go, Boy, you really saw the upside of that situation. But be honest about it. Yep, that’s exactly how I chose to look at or write or spin that lyric.

And then I’ve let myself, at times, let’s go down to the debit side into not depression, but into forms of, Well boy, let’s really just grovel in this bad moment, in this ugly situation. Let’s see how long we can grovel in this on the page. Let’s make it worse than it is. And then look at it and go, Wow, you made that worse than it was, Dude, that sounds catastrophic. You need help. You need to go to the doctor. And then you look at it and go, No, I know I did that.

I mean, I went ahead, and I took the exercise, but let’s ride that road down now. Do that a lot less than saying Uh-uh. So part of it, look, denial is a really interesting word, and it usually gets thrown out like, ah, it’s not honest. Don’t be denying. We got to be honest. Put it up. But man, I look at my mother at her, how she’s doing it 90 and how well she sleeps and how just every day she’s right there at 90 and doing so damn well and quick. And she is proof of the value of denial if you really commit to it.

Greg McKeown:

That’s not where I thought you were going.

Matthew McConaughey:

No, but she just, if something happens that she just, Nope, and doesn’t go back and reconsider. Well, should you have given that kind of crappy situation more credit? No, no, I didn’t, actually. I’m saying it didn’t happen. She knows it happened, but there is no discussion, no subjugation. It’s gone. And I look at that and go, she’s not living dishonesty. She’s just frank and upfront about everything. But she’s also much less considerate than I am. Or she’s just like, people will get over it, and I’ll get over it. She thinks because she gets over things so quickly, she also trusted other people. Hey, get over it. It’s not a big deal. Quit hashing it out. Let’s move on to where people made a mistake next. There’s value in that.

Greg McKeown:

Well, that’s so curious. You’re saying that because I knew somebody in his nineties who would, in his nineties, is on a, he’s going maybe two hours on his mountain bike, and then he’s just playing and playing with his life and serving two. And here’s what I noticed about him. He would not do negative. 

He wouldn’t even, he wouldn’t just go, Oh, I’m not going to do negative. He wouldn’t even participate in it whatsoever. He might middle sentence him with you very happily, just walk away. If somebody starts talking about something, he just wouldn’t do it. And that didn’t seem like just a temperament thing. Maybe it is, but it’s like a decision. I’m not wasting my time on this. 

Greg McKeown:

Was your mother always like this?

Matthew McConaughey:

Yes, Always, always. 

Greg McKeown:

I’m not dealing with that. I’m going to, I’m getting over it. Everyone else has to get over it.

Matthew McConaughey:

That’s it. That’s not done. And then actually deny. And actually, to the extent of denying that it was even that she thinks she will consider it and not tie like an intellectual practice just in her court. It’s fiction.

Greg McKeown:

Like, give me an example. Give an example of a fiction moment. Oh, I mean a recent example.

Matthew McConaughey:

A recent example.

Greg McKeown:

Oh no. Any example is fine.

Matthew McConaughey:

Well, last night, we took the two of ’em out to dinner. I don’t know if I’ll get to the point here, but I took them out to dinner. There was a local musician who played a bunch of songs Mom knew. We all sang along to some songs. 

We got back home. It’s 8:30. The kids are gone having a night out. We were going to watch something. Mom’s like, Come on, come on, let’s go watch a movie. I’m like, Mom, I got to. I’m getting up. I’m talking tomorrow morning. And actually, with the kids gone, this quiet evening sounds great to me. And me and Camilla are going to go to bed. And she starts chastising me in a fun way but also a real way. I’m 90; you’re my son, the youngest one. And now it’s a quiet night, and you’re going to bed. You got to go. What’s wrong with you? Called me a bunch of different profane names. These things all in good gesture. She’s giving it to me, just giving it to me. 

My point is, this is another part of her vitality loves controversy that not, I ended up going take, we ended up talking for 30 minutes and it was like, look, mom, this argument was more entertaining than going to watch a damn movie for you anyway. So we got another 30 minutes now. Goodnight. I love you. That’s right. 

But she lives on controversy. If things are going smooth, if it’s a smooth-running river and then everyone’s getting along great. She throws a wrench in on purpose just to jackknife everybody up and go, Yeah, now we’re alive. Yeah. Now that didn’t quite answer, directly answer your question about an example of her denial. But that’s her denying going, I’m going to deny that everything’s just calm, cool, and collected, and we’re all kind of locked in and know our stuff. Come on, I’m going to get in the middle, and I’m going to throw a wrench in this. I’m going to stoke the fire. And that’s part of denying her denying any sort of kumbaya existence. 

Greg McKeown:

Well, what you’re describing Is someone who wants to, is going to, not wants to, is going to live on their terms. That’s what you’re describing.

Matthew McConaughey:

And not afraid. Not looking forward to dying, but not afraid to die. I’ve never heard anyone in my life that she, and this is another trait she’s got that I love. No one forgives themself quicker than my mother. I tell you that. She wakes up, she goes, and she gets up to about the eighties. You know how elders, you’re revolutionary young. You get middle-aged, maybe children, you start to realize some things your mom and dad taught you were right, and you’re like, yeah, you know what, they point there, and you got to get responsible. And then, around what seems like sixties,  most of them turn back into revolutionary. Now, I don’t know if that’s coming into what’s considered the third quarter or fourth quarter of life where you’re like, I’m a hey man, death’s next f this. I’m not considering nothing. I don’t give a damn whatever it is. But she became a real revolutionary again. And I would go to her, she’d do things about mom, you just flat out lied about that. Oh, she’ll tell fibs all the time. 

She’s told fibs about being married to a man after my dad passed away so she could save 150 bucks to the country club fee a month. Right. And thought she could get away with it. I mean, yeah, shameless. But I went to her, and I was like, Look, these things come on, mom. You taught us not this, not to do this. What about your own conscious mom? Do you go to bed at night with any consideration of let me go back for my day and think of what I could do better, or what do I regret, or what I want to improve on? 

She goes, Oh honey, I got a long list of those. Every night I make a mental list of things. I look back, and I go, Oh, I could have done that better. I want to improve on that list. Usually, a list of like 20 to 25 things, and I’m listening. I’m going, Yes, okay. And she goes, You know what, though? The thing about it is when I wake up in the morning, I forgot ’em all.

And that’s her. And I go, Is that denial? Is that shallow? It’s not shallow because she’s not a shallow woman at all. But that’s her choice to go, bam. I’m not into it. She’s like, I’m 90. This is what I do. I’m not into self-improvement. I like my daily life, how I go. I got my ritual, how it goes. I like adventure. Come on. If anyone’s going, I’m going with you, and I know I’m 90, but wait up because I’m coming. So engaging in life but walking away from any sort of negative or boring situation.

Greg McKeown:

She doesn’t have time to be bored. But you’re describing something very, I mean, it’s a very decisive way of living here, right? Because you’re just going, I’m not doing, I’m not going to hold onto grudges. It sounds like a very grudge-free life. Is that true? Am I hearing that right? Is that part of the advantage?

Matthew McConaughey:

We had one grudge, and it was with the twin sister, and they got over their stuff, but there’s no grudges, and you could not hold, she won’t hold one. Look, she’s got that thing. It’s why her and my buddy Woody get along so well. Woody Harrelson, they got that thing where look, Woody will show up three days late to your own damn wedding.

But you can’t be mad at Woody because if you showed up three days late to his wedding, he’d be like, It’s okay, bro. Anytime you go, Come on dude, you go, I always go, I could do the same to them. And they’d be like, It’s fine. My mom’s got that same thing. No grudge, no condemnation. Hey, hey, it’s over. Forget it. Forgiveness quick. And you go, at times, that I’ll get upset with her. I go, well, the shoe on the other foot that did it to her, how she feels, she’d be like, Oh, that’s right. She’d slough it right off and go, Hey, no biggie. So you can’t condemn them. You know what I mean?  Because they wouldn’t condemn you. 

Greg McKeown:

Tell me about how it is with Woody. What does that make the relationship like? Is it just freeing for you because you’re like, Hey, this guy is not going to force himself to do something weird that doesn’t work for him? And so I don’t have to worry about that. And also, he won’t hold a grudge with me. Does it just make the relationship easier?

Matthew McConaughey:

Well, it, yeah, it does make it easier sometimes. I mean, look, that’s a childlike quality in many ways. There’s no form. Don’t cut the formalities. Come on; I’ll see you when I see you. We cross up, and hey, how’s it going? And oh, forgot to say goodbye. Well, I went even say goodbye just kind of took off, and I knew I’d see you two months later, whatever it is. 

There’s a lack of, you know, see kids on the playground? No. Hey, do you want to play on the playground? No. They just boom. They just go and show up and disperse without saying goodbye. And come back together a month later and maybe say hi for its second. But they’re right onto the, they’re right onto behaving, playing the game. So there’s no sentimentality that comes with them. There’s no sentimentality that comes with my relationship with Woody or my mom. 

Greg McKeown:

There’s no burden.

Matthew McConaughey:

No, there’s no burden. It’s light, it’s easy, and it’s free coming in. It’s free going out, and it’s net coming in and net going out. Instead of finances, which are gross coming in and net going out, it’s net/net. It’s easy. Because when you flip it, it’s the same exchange rate with their behavior and your behavior. If you did the same to them, it’s the same exchange rate, the same judge and jury, which is really no and jury. It’s free.

Greg McKeown:

It’s low maintenance.

Matthew McConaughey:

It’s low maintenance. Now it can be a little matting cause I’m a structure guy. I like my timetables. I like to have things lined up and go; well, this is planned. And the reason that that was said at noon was so we could relax, walk without rushing and show up at our three o’clock thing, which was perfectly timed for this, which was perfectly timed so we could show up at 6:30, which was sunset, and we could do this all by walking languidly. But if we would, Mom, you’re showing up at one o’clock for the 12 o’clock. Now we’re all; we’re, we’re going to have to a shorter show from noon to three than we would have because now it’s from one to three. And if we overlap, we’re going to be hustling to the next place. Or if we don’t want to hustle and just keep walking, we’re going to be late to the three, and we’re going to miss the sunset. So anyway, I compound those things out in the future. They don’t. They’re like, what are you talking about? What are you doing? Silly McConaughey. So we go back and forth and jack with each other on those fronts.

Greg McKeown:

I just read today that this is from Gallup poll and here’s what it found. There’s a decline in friendship percentages of who report having the following number of close friends, not counting their relatives. So it shows that in 1990, 40% of men reported having 10 plus friends. And now the average is down to 15%.

And for women it used to be 26% said they had 10 plus friends and now it’s down to 11%. Now you could break down more detail to what I’m saying, but that is a pretty serious shift from 1990 to now. So over a 30 year period, a significant reduction in the number of people we would call friends.

Has that happened to you or has the opposite happened for you over the last 30 years?

Matthew McConaughey:

Oh, that’s a really good question. My first hunch is to say that probably has happened to me. I have more friends and acquaintances. Acquaintances less what I would call really good friends. Part of that and my brother Rooster’s like, he’s great. He’s like, who would want less friends? He has so much energy, he has thousands of friends.

Me, I’ve chosen, it comes and it comes with getting married and having children. First I go, well, with 24 hours in a day for a certain group of friends. After I started a family that understood, just without saying, oh, McConaughey is spending more time with those most important to him to nurture those relationships. Which I still do. Now in the last five years, I’ve expanded my friendships and acquaintances to different people. I’ve had the courage to reach out to elders and mentors like I never did before and have made some new friendships there that I really appreciate.

I’ve evolved out of some other friendships where we were just in two different places or maybe they didn’t get married or have a relationship or have a children. So we’re just doing two different things or they moved to another part of the world. I’m not going to say my friendships have declined. I’ve always look, I write about in the book, always been one who, here’s a good example. I got a box at the University of Texas. It holds 26 people for the games. Very seldom do I invite 25 other people, not because I couldn’t fill it easily, but I would rather have a cultivated 12 or a cultivated 16 and I have empty seats. Sometimes I’ve gone with just me and my family. I got a cultivated five by choice and I’m going to curate a group. There’s a lot of times I’m like, my favorite is a one on one, maybe a two on two where there’s four of us a couple beyond that.

I don’t like to, I’d rather preferably not spread out and lighten up the conversation where we can’t go 2, 3, 4 deep if we need to and stay on point. I enjoy the dinner party with 24. But going into that, you’re based on where you’re sitting, you’re going to have little pops. It’s like a night show. It’s not a sit down hour conversation like we’re having, like we got five minutes, go. And you’re going to have little pops here and you kind of got to roll with it. It’s a different rhythm. They’re fun, but you’re not going to go in deep unless the person to your left or to your right. You actually get into one of these great one-on-ones in the middle of that, which those aren’t really designed to do. So I definitely am someone who I prefer. I find that I to like put in more time with fewer to raise the quality over the quantity. Yeah.

Greg McKeown:

If you have found value in this episode, please write a review on Apple Podcasts. The first five people to write a review of this episode will receive year-long access to the Essentialism Academy. Just send a photo of your review to info@gregmckeown.com. Also, do yourself a favor and subscribe to the podcast so that you can receive these episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays effortlessly. The book Effortless and Essentialism together are designed as a formula to be able to help you to not only know that your most important work is always ahead of you but to be able to do that most important work that is always ahead of you. We’ll continue the conversation with part two.