Speakers

Greg McKeown, Derrick Johnson


Transcript

Greg McKeown  

Dear essentialists, welcome again, to this Essentialism podcast. Thank you for listening. Not every episode on this podcast is the same. Some episodes are essential interventions where I get the privilege to work with individuals one on one, in listening to their unique situation and how essentialism can apply to them. And because that which is most personal, is most universal, I’ve heard from many, many of you about how relevant those episodes are to you. And so, in the future, there will be more of those episodes to come. And in fact, if you would like to be considered for such an intervention or coaching session, please email me at Essentialism dot com. Occasionally an episode will be what we could brand, an Essential Conversation. In other words, it’s about an issue in the that’s so relevant right now, it’s essential. Even while we aren’t talking directly about the practices of essentialism, this is such an episode. It’s with the president of the NAACP, Derek Johnson. Here he is leading an organization whose purpose is to empower and advance African Americans. And in the current climate, one can only imagine the increased pressure on him and requests for his time. So it’s a privilege to be able to speak with him today. As you will see, it doesn’t take long before we get to the red-hot center of the issues, the essence of the subject at hand. Because the ability to talk respectfully, compassionately, but truthfully, together is vitally important, perhaps more so now than at any time in a generation. I hope you enjoy this episode and again Thank you for listening. 

Greg McKeown  

Welcome, everybody to the Essentialism Podcast. I am here with the one and only president Derek Johnson, the president of the NAACP, a man who is on a mission at a time that is goes without saying is especially timely. Welcome to the show.  

Derrick Johnson   

Thank you for having me.  

Greg McKeown  

Um, could you just back up and tell us what matters most to you, in your leadership at the NAACP and why? 

Derrick Johnson  

Equal protection of the law is afforded to all citizens, particularly African Americans. So that we can be a part of making this nation what it should be to perfect democracy to ensure that our elderly are provided for, our young people have a bright future potential. And those who are disadvantaged, are their rights are protected. We can have a healthy community and we can help build a healthy society, if there is complete inclusion. 

Greg McKeown    

You see that being a clear ideal. It’s equality. Everybody gets to be at the table. Nobody is left behind that, that we believe in the one brotherhood of man. This is this is the ideal that you are fighting for. 

Derrick Johnson   

Absolutely, you know, if you think about this nation, we should guarantee every citizen a basic floor for human dignity. There is no reason why we should have hunger in this country. There is no reason why we are suffocating the potential of individuals. There is no reason that we allow law enforcement agencies to become predators in our communities or where we are warehousing people under a mass incarceration theory. And but most importantly, there is no reason why we are seeing the level of economic pressure so many families are confronted with, black and white. 

Greg McKeown   

Tell me this, so let’s just stay to kind of obvious thing here for a second. So I’m, I’m white, you’re African American. Can we talk about that? What is it you want me to understand? You know, and I’ve spent time with my, my wife with our children. We work hard to have racial literacy in our home over the years, but still over the last few months. You can’t be a be part of our current society and not reexamine those subjects, and make sure that we’re upping the standard in our home about becoming more literate about what’s going on. And so I just wanted you just, you know, just laying out there, what is it you would want from me from, from our family, to be better and to do better? 

Derrick Johnson   

You know, a couple of things, if you would, in our situation as a community, what would you want from us? Start there, that’s an empathy question. Secondly, the question and conversation about race has long been the elephant in the rooms. Okay, nobody really touches it. Nobody talk about it. In many cases, people try to walk around as if it don’t exist, when in fact, we all know it exists. You know, how do we stop allowing the huge invisible elephant really impede our ability to function as a society equally? And then finally, with young people, you know, it two things is powerful. One images, images have an impact. We have to force the images of, of who we are as a community and, and what’s possible in society to shift. But also how we are training and our young people to have more compassion and understanding. Their obligation and responsibility. Some of the worst things I’ve hear white people say is, well, that’s not me. I’m not like them. That’s that prior generation, as if there was a starting and stopping point of structural and systemic racism. It’s not what you have done in the past, it’s what exists today. That if I go to certain neighborhoods, that I am pulled over, and I’m addressed differently than if you go. And if we go together, then I may get a pass, then again, I may not. I mean there are so many things, that’s the elephant in the room that we must address. And I don’t know if we have enough time on the podcast to really unpack it all. It really is, what would you like to see done if the roles were reversed? 

Greg McKeown    

One of the things you said that I so I had another guest on the podcast, Dr. Helen Williams. And we get did get into some of these deeper elephant in the room issues. And one of the things that is so clear to me is that in my generation we were really taught, be colorblind, don’t see it. Don’t talk about it wasn’t even don’t talk about it, just don’t see it and then you don’t talk about it. But it’s become clear to me over the years that that is not what is necessary.  

Derrick Johnson   

It’s actually offensive.  

Greg McKeown   

It’s offensive. And one of my classmates at business school, African American classmates taught me this that if he doesn’t get to talk about it, there’s a huge part of him he just leaves behind. That he is just hiding a whole section of himself. Whereas in, you know, the position of fields in life, we don’t see color, we don’t see race, we’re moving past it. Yes, but that means so much of his experience isn’t able to be there. Do you relate to that? Does that feel right to you? 

Derrick Johnson     

Absolutely. We have to embrace our uniqueness, not marginalize it or make it invisible. Because if you marginalize it, you make it invisible, it only accelerates the problem. That there are so many of us that who cannot and shouldn’t conform to a standard. And because we cannot conform to a standard of how we look and how we, we vote, therefore, we will act like it’s not fair. Right? I remember having a very, really good in set of interns from Harvard Law School, maybe seven years ago project I was running. And there was one young lady who grew up in New York; smart, genius, great personality. Another young lady who grew up in Atlanta, and they went to different undergrad schools. And young lady from Atlanta, African American, she went to a historically black college, and she loves her experience. Young women who grew up in New York, white and she asks a question, she says, we’re both at Harvard Law School, why do we still need a historically black college? I thought we want to do away with segregation. I can remember Erika say, here’s the difference. When I’m on that campus, when I was on campus, I had the ability to be free. I can be who I was, I didn’t have to justify my existence. And I could explore, and I can learn, and I can excel. But once I got to Harvard law school, I had to be guarded. I had to justify, and I had to explain. I had to explain that I wasn’t here on any type of special program. I was just as smart as everybody was in class. In fact, I had one of the highest LSAT scores to qualify me to get in. I had to justify anytime I would speak in class, why I took the approach that I took, and I had to re-emphasize my analysis. And then I had to explain why my community had to operate in particular ways. She said, you know how much extra energy that is. I couldn’t be just a regular law student, exploring and loving learning. I had to always be on guard to do those things. 

Greg McKeown   

You’re describing an extra tax on every interaction when she’s at Harvard Law School compared to her undergraduate experience. Where a percentage, I don’t know what percentages, but it feels like quite a high percentage of extra work always to fit into a system that for maybe for her white classmates. They just it’s natural. It’s it feels easy. It feels that part is effortless, but for her it’s constant effort to fit in, to explain, to make interactions acceptable and okay. What do you think the percentage tax is either for her, but maybe you can’t speak for her, just generally for someone, for you? 

Derrick Johnson   

It’s 100% taxation. I mean, me my experience a loss was very similar. I’m sitting in class criminal law class, there was a particular a class that was being discussed a professor, former prosecutor. And I’m listening to this case, it was called it was I remember the style of the case, but it was talking about state of mind, Mensrea. And the case I was familiar with, and as she was explaining, I was like, that doesn’t sound right. So I kept raising my hand up, I say, but is this this, is this that? I didn’t know because I was raising a question. And it was a case about Huey P Newton, and this former prosecutor, criminal law professor didn’t know all of that. I’m just having a discourse in this class, which was natural for me to do in my undergrad, but in this particular context, because I am one of eight African Americans in a class of 120 people. And that every time I asked a question, it was seen as offensive and racialized when I was simply asking questions about the case. And I can recall distinctly, there was two African American professors and one African American Dean. And one of the professors after class it was no more than two hours see me in the hallway say I need to see you now. It took me to the African American dean class, say what happened in this class? So what are you talking about? So I’ll start explaining. They both say you are never to speak in that class again. After the semester, we would do your schedule for you. Your job is to learn and graduate from law school. Your job is not to try to get people to see point of view. And I was dumbfounded. I’m like, whoa. He said, no, your job is simply understand and get out. That was the lowest grade I got in law school. 

Greg McKeown   

What that story means to you is that you needed to play the game a certain way. But you’re not just saying a certain way, you’re saying you felt that you had to play that game differently than the other students in the class. 

Derrick Johnson   

I couldn’t have an opinion. I had I had to be invisible.  

Greg McKeown   

You had to be invisible. 

Derrick Johnson   

I had to be invincible because when I walked in the door, there was already a certain perspective. And every time I talked it only cemented a conscious or unconscious bias in a way in which impacted my ability to really engage in that class. 

Greg McKeown    

I want to push on this. I want to understand something that when I went to graduate school, there was an unspoken rule that in a class of 60 people, you could only make one comment per class. Because if you made two or three, five comments, that was taken time from somebody else in the room. 

Derrick Johnson   

That’s right.  

Greg McKeown   

And after a year or so of this, we had some students from elsewhere on campus join us and one of them made five, six comments in one class, and the rest of us. I mean, you’ve never talked about it openly. But we all would just what is this person thinking, what are they doing? They were violating the rule. You know, we’re like, what? Yeah, that’s not how it’s done. And yet, no one had explained that to them that now to me, Well, it wasn’t a racial issue, because there was no racial difference in that moment. So help me understand for you. I’m certainly not trying to be rude in asking this question. How did you know it’s racial, in that setting? What was it about it that you went, no, I know that’s racial I’m not saying it wasn’t. I just want to understand how to know the difference. Is it apart? Is it who pulled you aside and they’re the ones that are explaining it? Help me understand. 

Derrick Johnson     

Two things. One, in law school is the Socratic method, no one volunteers to rush the talk because you become the target. Two, but when you’re called on, you have to be prepared and be able to do what you do. But three, why would a professor who was not in my class know about it unless it was being expressed in the lounge with the other professors and she happened to overhear it? And when she overheard it, they didn’t realize she was in the room. And when they realize she was in a room, she exited and found me to say we got a problem. Because it was those professors who understood the nature of being African American student in that environment, what it meant. And they had all of us been the place we go to so they can help coaches through that environment. 

Greg McKeown    

You’re saying that, I think what you’re saying is based upon your own experience in the past, based upon this professor’s experience, they’re just it’s not that other people don’t have to also be careful about what to say in the class. But on top of that was something extra. On top of that, that was something that just exists and you’re familiar with it in, you know, in many circumstances in your life.  

Derrick Johnson   

Yes.  

Greg McKeown    

You’re not saying no one else has to be careful about how many times to speak but you’re saying that plus x percent is your? 

Derrick Johnson   

Right. Plus, so you take for those, the professor who pulled me aside, they knew this professor’s track record. They knew the track record. They knew the language and the codes. And I was in there, and they knew the other professors track record. So they say we would do your schedule from now on, to make sure you take the right professors. 

Greg McKeown   

Oh, that’s, to me, that is an amazing additional factor. That they are saying there are some places that you won’t know that do hold a bias, a presumption against you that you won’t be aware of, and it will affect your ability to get through here.  

Derrick Johnson   

Absolutely. 

Greg McKeown   

And we’re going to help you get through that.  

Derrick Johnson   

Absolutely. 

Derrick Johnson   

I’ve had I’ve had that all my career. When I’m in a mixed-race environment of as African American man, we get it all the time. So you always have to be careful, especially when showing up in a posture where others have control over the situation. 

Greg McKeown   

Give me an example of that. Help breathe life into that 

Derrick Johnson   

So high school reality, right? I grew up in Detroit. I remember one of my English professor Mr. Murase. I can recall his name, Mr. Murase. Mr. Murase was notorious for flunking all of African American males in the class, and he typically will flunk you your senior year. But he was one of two teachers in speech. And so of course, Ms. Cabbieclass, it booked up pretty fast. And so if you pull those shorts in, do you miss Ross’s class? And sure enough, that first semester, Mr. Murase, not because of my performance, he will have this rule that if you are a second, but late from the bell. You’re tardy. If you get seven tardies, you’re absent. If you get three absences, you flunk automatically. I’m a 12th grader, I’m silly, I’m having a ball, I’m immature. So I will always get there a minute after the bail. I had excellent grades in the class and was always teetering. But there were two teachers at the school who created a failsafe for us to graduate because they seen this pattern over and over and over. So they will create an elective class that can go in place of the speech in the spring semester. 

Greg McKeown   

Mm hmm. Because they don’t want somebody not graduating from high school because they have x number of tardies in one class. That’s not a great outcome for a high school experience and for someone’s potential in the future. 

Derrick Johnson  

No, they were in fear of some people if you didn’t graduate that year, it was a high dropout rate.  

Greg McKeown   

Right. 

Derrick Johnson   

They knew the track record of this particular teacher. And it was targeted at African American males, because there were others who were slightly tardy, but they didn’t get the same penalty. 

Greg McKeown   

Yes, I hear you. 

Derrick Johnson   

Right. Miss Brown and Miss Smith was an accomplished teacher, they created a business English class for that very reason. So the next semester, I’m in business English, and all of my friends are in business English. All of us had Mr. Murase speech class, not the same class, different class. And I remember Ms. Brown towards the end of the semester says, I got to do this class every year because of the same problem.  

Greg McKeown    

They’ve created an additional class in order to avoid this situation. In that situation, does it feel to you that that teacher, I think it does, I think that’s what you’re saying. was deliberately biased in saying this way. This is a way for me to kind of keep someone back. Is it as strong as that? No, it doesn’t have to be as strong as that. It’s just, it’s Genpact. 

Derrick Johnson   

It’s Genpact. That’s right. It’s the impact, right? So is consciousness. You know, I’m not here to say what it was. I do know the impact was to say, so I said, well, you should have got there on time. I probably should have. I’m immature. I’m a 12th grade. I’m having a ball. In my neighborhood growing up. When there was one week, I got pulled over by the police every day, seven straight days. 

Greg McKeown   

Really? 

Derrick Johnson   

By the same two officers really was notorious in the neighborhood of doing all type of stuff that police officers shouldn’t be doing. 

Greg McKeown   

Like what? 

Derrick Johnson   

Eventually, they pull you over, they pat you down, you have what they call excessive of money in your pocket. They take the money say you’re a drug dealer. They wouldn’t arrest you, just take the money. If there was anywhere near where drugs being transact and they arrest people, you could get arrested, whether you had anything to do with it or not. 

Greg McKeown   

When you got pulled over those seven times, right, there’s what you’re saying right every day, sometimes seven times in a week. I mean, first of all, I just want to pause on that, because the only times I’ve ever been pulled over is for speeding. I mean, I can’t think of any other time in my whole life. So but you’re seeing you were pulled over were you driving in the time. No, you just walking along.  

Derrick Johnson   

I’m driving, driving. 

Greg McKeown    

So they pull you over. Were you speeding, you’re not speeding? 

Derrick Johnson   

Never a ticket, never anything. Suspicious car. 

Greg McKeown    

They say you got a suspicious car. You have to get out. 

Derrick Johnson   

Hands on the hood, they look through the car. 

Greg McKeown    

Your hands are on the hood in this moment. I mean, I know we’ve all heard this but I just talking through it. It’s more personal when we’re just talking about you and I. And there hands on the hood and you feel what in this moment? I mean, even the first time it happens, you feel what? 

Derrick Johnson  

The first time it happened. It was funny. It was one of my closest friends was in a car. He was in the police academy. He literally had just been accepted to police academy, maybe two weeks from graduating. He had his Academy badge and gun. And when they pat us down, is a gun. He said, I’m in the academy, I’m in the academy. It is like everything tensed up. And we looked at each other. We just shook my head. And then they questioned whether or not he was really in the academy by asking him questions. Next time, I may have been coming off the freeway to see my car pulled over again, same thing. The last time I’m literally pulling up in front of my house and they jump out. And my mother come out, say you’ve pulled them over seven times, what are you looking for? They didn’t bother me anymore after that. In the same neighborhood, the other patrolman we knew, two of which grew up in a neighborhood, the lieutenant over the other division. We mentioned it to them, but Ben and Napolean had pulled us over. Officer Dunlap who we grew up with, or Julia Hawkins, they see us, they’re waving. We out playing basketball, they may come out and talk or shoot the ball. But if these two officers did it, pull up to the basketball court, people just run. Because you didn’t want to have to deal with them. What’s ironic is there was a gentleman in Detroit killed, Malice Green, by these two officers, and that’s how they found it was taken off the force, because they killed somebody. That’s that tax, right, tax. On a street in Detroit, Tyerman, which is the dividing line between Detroit and Dearborn, Michigan. It literally is a three-lane street on one side of the street, Detroit, the insurance on your property in your car is over double. You cross right across the street, same quality house, same build of a house, you’re charged less and both car insurance. Car insurance almost triple, house insurance double than that. That’s a literal tax. 

Greg McKeown  

Yeah, that’s right. But let me just come back to this description of this week pulled over seven times. Even the fact that you would know the names of the officers and know that there’s a couple to be careful of is a foreign experience to me. I cannot tell you the name of any officer ever. I can’t I just don’t know any. I’ve not needed to know any. You know, you don’t have to be careful of these people because this can be trouble. It’s just, it’s just it’s an interesting example of how for me that tax doesn’t exist. I have to think about that. Never had to think about that. For you, it’s a normal, everyday reality, to know their names, which ones you’re going to feel safe with, which ones you do not feel safe with, which ones feel out to target you. To be pulled over seven times in a week and then what do you feel at the end of that week, help me put an emotion to that? 

Derrick Johnson     

You know, if you grew up in that environment, some of this be expected. You know it’s not normal, you’re frustrated, you watched it all your life in this neighborhood, how this type of policing is carried out. You watch it mature in some areas and dial down in other areas, with the times, because it was seen in Detroit, so you began to see the composition of police officers shift from majority white police officers, still majority black police officers, many of those officers now coming from your neighborhood. So you’d begin to see the shift, but you are always aware of the legacy police officers who’ve had this problem. That when you begin to have the requirement that police officers must live in the city, there is a different type of relationship. Because now you have officers who come from the neighborhood, they know the people, they care about the outcome. They care about keeping people safe. They know who the good and bad guys or situations are. And they can help mediate when necessary, as opposed to someone who are not from the community, never lived in a community don’t care. It becomes a police predatory state. 

Greg McKeown   

Well, and the word that comes to mind as you’re describing this really is trust.  

Derrick Johnson     

Yeah. 

Greg McKeown   

If there’s two-way trust, everything becomes easier. You’re willing to share information you say, hey, there’s some trouble going down in this area. You might want to check that out. There’s, you believe these people are here to help you. It’s community policing versus after the fact reactive, what you’re describing predatorial policing, that law enforcement, it’s a different mindset. I have a friend who’s a police chief up in Canada, he was for many years. And he started a positive tickets movement where he would, he was so fed up with the norms of policing where he was that he said, it’s always reactive. It’s always after the fact he was with a community of the indigenous youth. And he was doing a presentation and he sat there in his police uniform, and he says, well, who am I? You know what, and they said, oh, well, we know who you are. You’re someone who hides in the bushes and takes our mothers and fathers away. This is who you are. And in this moment, he goes, okay, well, this is all got to change. It’s not a little more efficient in the current system. This whole thing has to be turned on its head so that they recognize I’m here to help them, to keep safety. And he began a focus where he called it, the end of crime. So it’s not after the fact, it’s before the fact. It’s trying to build trust, build relationships, and they had these positive tickets, they would catch you doing the right thing. And that might be free pizza at the local wherever. And you had to come to the police, you know, offices in order to get that coupon. And the whole point was to build trust so that you’re not only ever suspicious of the person in the uniform, and I just they reduced recidivism rates from about 60% down to about 8%. They cut youth crime in half and overall crime they cut by 40%, in this alternative approach. I just spoke to him recently and, and again, he’s like, look, it really works. But he said right now, he said in the United States, there’s a messaging around these alternative approaches to voicing that type of attitude. That’s just being soft, that doesn’t work and it’s like quite it does work, and he wanted he was quite on fire about this.  

Derrick Johnson   

You know if your friend is in Canada he felt that way. You know, if you’re familiar, Detroit across the bridge from Windsor. We used to go to Windsor. You can feel the difference when we in Windsor compared to Detroit at certain times. You know, community police, it has value. Also making sure police officers are not service and social workers and mental health counselors and all kinds of stuff that they should not be serving. 

Greg McKeown   

They’re not are trained for. 

Derrick Johnson   

Yeah, they’re not trained for nor should they be budgeted to do that. The defunding of essential services to support communities and households that are in trauma. The defunding of the mental health providers created unnecessary tensions on law enforcement agencies. One of the most dangerous calls that a police officer can make is a domestic call. 

Greg McKeown   

Yeah.  

Derrick Johnson   

Because it’s so much emotion. 

Greg McKeown   

So volatile. 

Derrick Johnson   

That’s right, it’s volatile. When many domestic calls could have been mitigated. On the front end, if you have well placed social workers and other services to address some of the underlying issues that will create the domestic issue in the first place. 

Greg McKeown 

Yeah, it makes perfect sense to me that you don’t really want to introduce armed personnel into a highly charged emotional conflict. That makes sense to me. I mean, it’s not it’s not I’m not knocking the police and making that observation. I’m just saying, if I’m having a big argument with anybody, if my wife and I were getting into an argument and then somebody just came along, and they happen to have guns in their pockets just not a great idea.  

Derrick Johnson   

You just don’t do it.  

Greg McKeown   

You don’t want guns, who’s in the middle of what already feels what is emotional. And it’s out of control. 

Derrick Johnson   

That’s right. Because when emotions are on the table logic is out the door. Yeah, there is no logic in the door. So you have to have someone who can address emotional situations. So you can de-escalate, not escalate. And many a in law enforcement will tell you the same thing that if there’s a 911 call, why shouldn’t there be a trained professional to address these issues, as opposed to police officers. And many of them, they hate going to domestic calls. There’s been a spike in crime in many areas because of the pandemic. 

Greg McKeown   

Right. 

Derrick Johnson   

And 90% of those who have been engaged the they know each other. It’s family, it’s friends, who are sitting in the midst of anxiety and trauma and economic stress, because of the current realities. We need to be escalating support for social workers and mental health counselors in this moment, because that’s what’s needed. There’s anxiety, not law enforcement. 

Greg McKeown   

Yeah, that both sides are being set up to fail in that scenario. You take somebody who is well trained as a police officer, they’re not coming in with bias, but they’re just being put in situations that isn’t their core competency. You know when you need a lawyer, you don’t need a doctor on coming in. In that moment, you know, you need people trained for that particular challenge. And it makes sense what you’re describing 

Derrick Johnson   

And think of it this way, and then you take some in law enforcement wonderful people. They’re committed, who served in the military, and they leave from battle. And now they’re in law enforcement, and they’ve never been properly supported for mental health counseling and they’re suffering from post-traumatic stress, diagnosed or undiagnosed. Now you put them in these emotionally charged scenarios. They’re not only trained to deal with the scenario, they have not even been supported to, to mitigate and navigate their own emotional state. 

Greg McKeown   

One of the things would clamp on this, this police chief learned as he was doing his own research and his own journey to enlightenment, I suppose, is he realized that, that originally when policing began and in Great Britain, it was peace, it was a peace officer. It was somebody I knew that in the community known. I love this point about you in living in the community, you know, the people they know you, you understand the dynamics that are normal. And what things are not, which things are dangerous and which things are not. And he said it’s shifted from there to being law enforcement, which is a different intent is a different dead. What you I think adding to that is way if you’re not careful, it becomes not just law enforcement. It’s the militarization. 

Derrick Johnson   

Yes. 

Greg McKeown   

And if you take on a military mindset you could be very efficient, work really hard in your job but you’re going to still see the people you’re supposed to be serving it too often as the enemy  

Derrick Johnson   

Yeah.  

Greg McKeown   

And see them in a way where the biblical term through a glass darkly that you’re not seeing it, the people that you’re supposed to be protecting clearly, you’re seeing everybody as threat. There’s a situation recently I’m sure you saw it, but and I don’t know the context and that does really matter. This was social media. I just saw the video but it was three years young men, African American men, homeless man had been sort of coming at them I think with a knife and so 911 was called the police arrived. Did you see this and that the guns are out, and these boys are all, you know, they’re all arrested. They’re calling 911 for help they help us with that additional context. You familiar with the story? 

Derrick Johnson   

I’m familiar with the story, but that’s the reality that I’m speaking of growing up in, right. 

Greg McKeown   

You’re saying there’s nothing surprising about that story to you? 

Derrick Johnson   

Sadly, no that you actually ask someone to call because there’s another set of boys creating problems against this set of boys who really had they didn’t do anything. When the police get their guns on everybody’s pleadings like they’re not they that they okay, they didn’t do anything. The manager come out, say I’m the one that caught not them. They okay. And it seems as if the law enforcement officers they could not get out their mind that they needed to react with extreme aggression. That is the reality far too many communities live in, law enforcement agencies with officers who respond with extreme aggression. Even when aggression is not needed. 

Greg McKeown   

This idea of extreme aggression, it feels that it’s named something. And one of the things that names is what I just observed broadly, in culture right now in our society. We have this, I am concerned myself, I’m sure you must be at the tone of the discord. There was a one of my friends or one of my author friends posted on social media responding to an article that was basically saying, violent protest, there’s a role for violent protest, you need to embrace violent protests and they responded, saying, No, no, no, no, no, please no. What we don’t need is violent process in the midst of this. I’m interested in your response to that, but what I supported it, I was saying, Well, yes, you know, we need, you know, we want to see Martin Luther King now, you know, we need this kind of leadership and the reaction was really negative, both to her comment and to mine, people so angry. And I’m going to giving you one tiny example, but I just see examples across the board of such readiness for a fight, so ready to misjudge each other too. And I worry about this because conflict begets conflict. And so, the more this is the dialogue, the harder it is to solve problems. The harder is to find some middle ground where you can try and come up with better and more creative solutions. Your thoughts on this, there’s just a tendency towards aggressive communication. 

Derrick Johnson   

If you think about images that we see on television and news, is all about aggression. Breaking story all day is the same story, and some shock value. And we’re looking to do that we have to reprogram our responses, our communications around issues. Some of that has been generated with what we consume on the media, some of that has been generated based on how we perceive people perceive our perception of the perception. At some point, there has to be a smarter approach to de-escalate. All of the pent-up aggression and emotional feelings, and in many ways is because people feel that unease about their future outlook, you know. 

Greg McKeown   

Yeah, if you don’t have any hope. If you don’t, then you’re going to feel like you have fewer options actually do some research and just reading about this Barbara Fredrickson. It’s called the broaden and build theory and basically, she’s saying, when you have negative emotion, your options reduced. You know, when the fight flight, you know or freeze. And if you can have positive emotions, then all your options increase. You have a sense of possibility and you can be creative with other people and, and I just think a lot of what we’re talking about is, you know whether it’s policing, whether it’s the, the unseen tax of being African American in America today. These things helped precious someone, hold their precious is African American to feel like they have fewer options, you know, to feel like they have to be in a fight flight or freeze mode. Your literal example of the when those two police officers come up, you run, you haven’t done anything wrong. You’re just playing basketball, you’re not doing but you see him you go well, I’ve only got three options. I got to fight you know, flight or freeze. And so it reproduces exactly the type of problem, it escalates exactly the problem with those police officers. They’ve got their judgments, their prejudice, perhaps in this situation, and they see them running while see everything guilty, you know, and it recreates and reinforces this cycle. And it’s so sad, which of course, we need to be part of the solution on the other side, how do we create positive emotion? Even this conversation small as it is, is a step in that direction.  

Derrick Johnson   

Yeah. 

Greg McKeown 

We can have a dialogue so that we can be part of the solution. And, and that’s really what I want you to speak to now, I’ve already introduced this earlier about being a solution in my own family, but what can I do? What can people listening to this do to help be part of the solution? If they say, well, we want to support the NAACP, and I don’t just mean financially, I mean, they want to be part of it. Can they be part of it? How do they be part of it? How can it be part of this conversation? 

Derrick Johnson   

First of all, NAACP anyone can join in NAACP.org. Membership is relatively inexpensive. We have units in 47 of the 50 states. Across the country, we have always been interracial in our approach. Membership base is volunteer and local leaders defined the agenda of the association. So, we love more voices at the table. 

Greg McKeown   

And by the way, I’ll admit my ignorance. I didn’t know that. I mean, I didn’t not know it. I didn’t think oh, maybe you cannot be a member. But I wouldn’t have really known that I could go and join the NAACP without you having said. 

Derrick Johnson   

Oh we have members of every racial background you could think of. It was so funny, I will have to speak at a conference in Hawaii, poor me right? And when I get there, of course I have a we have no members in Hawaii. And it’s our branch want to have a reception. Great. Get there, a soul food restaurant like, soul food restaurant in Hawaii was there we had it was based on individuals who had been in the military. So there was from all across the country, you know, mostly black we had Filipino members there. We had white members, we had members of different Asian backgrounds. Alaska, the same reality. You know, the chair by legal redress was an older white guy who had migrated to Alaska years ago. And it was it was fascinating. So you know, we just, we have, we can’t discriminate and then say we’re fighting against discrimination. 

Greg McKeown   

Yeah, that’s right. I hear you. So that’s one thing that people can do. They can actually sign up as members of and be participate in the NAACP themselves. Good. Thank you more. What else can we do? 

Derrick Johnson   

You know, this election cycle, let’s be clear elections have consequences. And we’re targeting areas where we have to turn out the vote in ways in which we walk in there with the value proposition is one thing to have protesters in the street peaceful protest or is cute is beautiful, and it’s necessary but it’s not sufficient for change. It’s the bridge that can allow us to get the chance. So now we have to move from protest peaceful protests in the street to power at the ballot box to make sure.  

Greg McKeown   

Representation. That’s what you’re describing.  

Derrick Johnson   

That’s right and making sure that the value proposition that many people are chatting about in the streets are realized at the ballot box with a set of policy makers that also have that value proposition so we can get to public policy implementation. That’s where change happens. Then finally, these types of dialogues, open up honest dialogues in. Unfortunately, it can and will be uncomfortable if they’re really honest dialogues.     

Greg McKeown  

I am so grateful for your time. Thank you for the dialogue. Thank you for taking time I hope that we can stay in touch. I’m just grateful for this essential conversation.   

Derrick Johnson   

Yeah, well, I would love to do it again. Just let me know however, so you want to do it.  

Greg McKeown   

It is wonderful. Thank you and I appreciate your flexibility. 

Derrick Johnson   

Thank you, take care. Bye bye 


Greg McKeown

Credits:

  • Hosted by Greg McKeown
  • Produced by Greg McKeown Team
  • Executive Produced by Greg McKeown