18. An Essential Intervention with Grigory and Elizaveta Kharitidis

Speakers

Greg McKeown, Grigory Kharitidis, Elizaveta Kharitidis

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Transcript

Greg McKeown     

Let’s just start off. Introduce yourselves to, to me, tell me about you. 

Grigory Kharitidis  

Okay, so we are Lisa and Gregory heritage this. So we are in our mid 30s and early 40s. We live in Finland. And actually we come from Russia. But we moved to Finland about five years ago, I used to live in St. Petersburg, quite a big city in Russia, 5 million city. And we moved to a smaller town in Finland to be closer to nature. And also we have a six year old son, his name is Nikita, he will be going to school this August. Yeah, so we are a family of three. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis   

And I want to add that God works in city marketing. And I’m currently staying at home with our son. And we are actually an family of immigrants. So we have a bit of our own set of challenges here. And we were very excited to have this opportunity to talk to you. And to understand better, where do we move forward from where we are now? 

Greg McKeown  

For those that don’t know, tell us how did we get to this moment? 

Elizaveta Kharitidis      

Well, actually, I first came across your book, I think, five years ago in Russia, when it was first translated. And but I never got to read it because my son was one year old at that time. I remember today that the only book I read that year was a big blue volume about baby sleep. 

Greg McKeown    

You were focused on what was really essential.  

Elizaveta Kharitidis    

Yeah, like, nope, I didn’t read any pregnancy book or any early years book, but the book on baby sleep, I didn’t know and I remember the cover of your book. And this knot of lines, you know, the entanglement. And then the lines, were all put in a nice circle. And I thought, oh, yeah, I get it. So the cover really spoke to me and the title. And so I think I took something out of this cover. Five years later, I was doing the spring cleaning at home and washing the windows, cleaning the windows. And I was listening to your interview to your interview with Tim Ferriss. I listened to it several times and it really impacted me. 

Grigory Kharitidis      

And you came up to me and said, hey, you’ve got to listen to this interview. There are really great insights there. And so I listened to the interview, said yeah, that’s amazing. And so we bought the book, and both the audio version, and then later, we ordered the paperback version. And now we are aspiring essentialists. 

Greg McKeown        

Me too. I mean this with you. And you were bold enough and interested enough that Grigory I think you were the one to email. 

Grigory Kharitidis      

Yeah, I was the one to email and I thought, well, this is a great opportunity. And let’s just do that. And I asked Lisa, how do you feel about that? And she said, Yeah, let’s do that. So we were all excited. And then you answered. 

Greg McKeown      

No, I really I do read these requests. And I was curious about your example. So tell me just a little more about why you actually took the time to email. What was it that you said, Okay, this is really what we’re hoping to make progress on. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis    

Okay, um, I think I’ll start. We moved to Finland, and like I said, almost five years ago. For us, it was like five years long outbreath after our life in St. Petersburg, and after our son’s first year, and we got to the point where we really struggled as to where I move forward as a family because we got in a kind of routine, and things kind of settled down. Gregory got a job and our son has passed the terrible twos and the terrible threes, and so now he’s going to go to school, but we still feel like, um, I don’t know, maybe the immigration, maybe it’s the fact that we do not speak the community language, that well, we are not too well integrated into the local community, if there is any. So we find ourselves sort of like, I have this image of an island, you know, Finland has a lot of lakes and a lot of islands. And there’s us on this island, and we have our little house and the boat, but there is a huge fog all around us. And where to go next. We just, we don’t know. No, we don’t know. Because there is this fog, and we have a boat, but unless we find out, it is okay to go anyway, you know, we sail anyway, and we could set on any road. But we feel that it’s so arbitrary. And we really struggle to begin to build a life that is like you the word you used is coherent with ourselves, and we really struggle to live values, and we’re not even sure what they are. And we are at this age when it’s you know, it’s about time. Yeah, well, yeah, I know, it’s, you know, we may never find out, but it feels like there is no point in moving forward unless we know where to move. So we’ve been on sort of pause for about maybe six or eight months, with all the big decision making, and we’ve been on pause with dreaming and making decisions. I don’t know if that makes any sense. 

Greg McKeown   

So let me tell you say what I’ve heard, first of all, in a unified way, I made this decision, we’re leaving St. Petersburg, we’re going to Finland, we want to do that, because we just need to have a space, to breathe, to be together, to be united, to some extent to relax, to recover, to build this family together separately, and unitedly. And it sounds like it’s done that, that it has helped you to be able to build this family unit. It’s been a successful venture. But somewhere along the line, it’s almost worked too well, because it’s led to this feeling of isolation, where you’re not really part of the finished community. You don’t feel that sense of family in the community there. So now you feel a bit adrift? Well, we could do anything, we’ve already moved once to a different country, completely a different culture, we could do that again. And so the whole world is an option. But how do you make such a decision? How do you get clarity, for which direction to go in? And so it’s maybe it’s a nice problem to have that you could go anywhere and do anything, but you don’t know which direction to go in so it’s still a problem? 

Elizaveta Kharitidis      

Absolutely. This is spot on. That’s exactly what it is. 

Greg McKeown      

And Grigory, do you have something to add, is there is there something more? 

Grigory Kharitidis      

Yeah, I well, I would add that we used to live a life. And then we came to some tipping point when we realized that we can’t live like that anymore. We want to live a purposeful, meaningful life. And now we’re sort of stuck because of the indecision we like we don’t know where to go. I told Lisa, that we are like Neo who got disconnected from the matrix. And now he needs to learn like how to live in this real world. 

Greg McKeown      

Yeah, it’s such an interesting description. Now you said you were living a tipping point life before or you were you were living a type of life and it reached a tipping point. Describe that life to me for a moment. 

Grigory Kharitidis 

Well, it was well as you say, by by default, so we will be living by default. So we moved to Finland, we tried different things like we see an opportunity we take it, we fail, we take another one. Like for example we try to lead a healthy lifestyle, do sports, right try different diets. We tried different sort of educational programs for our kid, then but then it all failed all of them. Because we didn’t have any bigger picture. We didn’t have any bigger purpose. 

Greg McKeown   

So really, you were living this busy life, you were pursuing a lot of different ventures. But underneath it all, there was no substance to it. There was no, there was no purpose to it. There was, and so you felt adrift in a sort of completely different way? That’s what I’m hearing right now. 

Grigory Kharitidis   

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 

Greg McKeown   

And, and so you said, we’re out on this, we don’t want this. We want something different. And you really chose something different. And first of all, I want to applaud you on that, because it’s more typical, that people just keep going. And that there’s a feeling they have inside, that they are lost. But instead of admitting that people just keep going, they just they in fact, tried sometimes just to be busier. Now, how did you go from that feeling of being lost, to making this decision together to go to Finland? 

Elizaveta Kharitidis  

Well, I’ve always actually wanted to go and live in a different country, I always had a difficult time picturing my life in Russia. Well, I hope my parents don’t listen to this, but that’s true. So and we actually have as a, as a family, we have quite a bit of history of moving around. And some of mine and Grigoris’ ancestors were forcibly displaced. And we both come from ethnic minorities that were not favored. And so somehow, there has been a lot of moving around, both for my grand grandparents and Grigoris’ grand grandparents and my parents. So it was not very difficult decision to move someplace else. But what I’ve come to realize is that, you know, there’s been a lot of, you know, horizontal movement, and for my parents and for Grigoris parents, and for me, I changed several cities, while I lived in Russia, it felt like, also a way to keep myself or my parents to keep themselves busy, 

Grigory Kharitidis      

Sort of a distraction. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis      

So now I’ve made this horizontal movement, again, this time to Finland. And I’ve always wanted for my child to grow in a different country, and to have better opportunities than Russia has to offer right now, at this moment. So, yeah, his future has been a huge factor in our decision to move to Finland. So it’s basically that’s how I explained it to ourselves. We’re doing this for him. Yeah, but now we’ve come to realize that we haven’t done too much, you know, to fully embrace the opportunities and the life that we were hoping for, here in this country. 

Greg McKeown    

What is it you’re hoping for? What is it that you haven’t experienced that you want to experience? 

Grigory Kharitidis      

I think Lisa said that our families have a record of moving around horizontally, right, maybe the thing that we want to explore, and that we want for ourselves is to finally start moving in a more vertical direction moving up. 

Greg McKeown 

What does it mean for you, what is up? 

Grigory Kharitidis  

I would say settling down and being part of this community and feeling finally at home, feeling that you’re doing something good for the place where you live, and that this is home for your child where he will always want to return and probably will not want to move somewhere else to find happiness. 

Greg McKeown  

Yes, I think what you’re saying is that you want to change the intergenerational story. 

Grigory Kharitidis   

Yeah, that’s definitely true. Definitely. 

Greg McKeown  

That you have this multi-generational story going backwards, of displacement, of ethnic real challenges, not just, oh, it’s a little uncomfortable. But you know, you’re forced to move. You’re, you’re judged harshly where you do move, your rights are not respected, never mind just being respected as a member of the community. And  so, there’s, there’s a long journey of displacement of moving, but really moving to survive, and then moving again to survive. And how long can we stay here before we inevitably have to move again? That’s the story up to this point. And what you want, is, I mean, the words you used, let me just highlight a couple of them home. You weren’t home, home for your son. But I think it’s even deeper than that. I think its home for my grandchildren.  

Elizaveta Kharitidis   

Yes.  

Greg McKeown   

Home for my great grandchildren. Home for my you know, and we could go on?  

Elizaveta Kharitidis   

Yes, yeah.  

Greg McKeown   

And so this moment, if we, if we just expand our vision for a moment, you have, potentially in front of you not a decision about just Oh, where do we feel like going next? What would be interesting? adventure? No, you’re saying, where are we supposed to be and be for a long time? Where are we? Where we’ll hopefully be? Because you made this momentous decision that you’re currently making. Your thoughts? 

Elizaveta Kharitidis   

Exactly. I honestly don’t know how you do it. But this is, this is so spot on. And I feel like, I’m constantly thinking about, like four generations behind me, and a couple of generations ahead of me, and this is a bit overwhelming. And definitely, it’s an intergenerational thing. And the past and the future are the factors. 

Greg McKeown   

Something you’re saying that I don’t want you to miss. Is that you are feeling led, you are feeling some guidance, even amidst your uncertainty, even though you don’t know the answer to the question yet. What you’re describing is something very familiar to me. And no one else listening to this has to believe what I believe but, in my tradition, my faith tradition, I firmly believe that our ancestors can affect us can impact us or alive can be with us, especially if we are open to that. And same for even our children unborn. That somehow our lives and their lives are not completely separate. As sometimes we, you know, might think if we were just thinking purely from a perspective of biology, no, there’s something richer, something deeper, that if we are quiet, if we well, to use your metaphor from before, if we aren’t just plugged into the matrix, if we unplug from that we can start to sense our connection to them. And I want to celebrate that within you. Because not only have you said I don’t want the old life. I’m going to create space. I mean, you did it quite vividly, you know, Finland, quite a, you know, quite a leap out there. But in that quieter, you know, space, you have sent something that I think will be key can be key in helping guide you in this decision that’s before you. Let me ask you this, if you were making this decision for your great grandchildren. So people you never meet, but you were choosing where to go for them. Where would you go? Or would you go anywhere, I mean, I don’t mean to assume it but just what’s the first thought when I say that to you? 

Grigory Kharitidis    

Nature. And I would just love my grand grandkids to grow up around nature, not in the city, by the lake, by the sea by the mountains, in the nature. Definitely  

Greg McKeown   

Something that centers them in that place.  

Grigory Kharitidis   

The first time that I entered the forest here in Finland. For example, it brought back the memories of my childhood. Well, almost instantly because well as a child, I would spend hours and hours in the forest unattended, just exploring the nature. And that’s what I want for my kid. And, and for my grandkids. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis 

I mean, it’s a home, it’s a home. And as strange as it may seem, or maybe it’s quite, you know, logical in my situation, I’m longing to have a home where grandchildren would love to come visit, stay and roam, and when I’m gone, and they would remember not me, but the home and how they felt in that home. This feeling of being carefree and taken care of, and maybe they can carry this happy feeling forward to their children, and be grounded in that, maybe build some sort of routines that allow you to live these values. 

Greg McKeown  

You just described the culture that you want to give them. You’re describing a culture of home where you didn’t, you did describe a place, but it was more than a place, it was a place and the feeling that could carry on that you could teach them, by your example, how to feel that way how to feel that safe, how to feel that sense of how to feel that loved, and that they would also know how to do it for their children and their grandchildren, and that it could go on for a long time into the future. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis  

Thank you for saying that. We are not crazy. A week ago, our nephew, he came to visit us. We’ve been talking about it for a couple of months. And I couldn’t really tell myself precisely why I want my nephew to come to visit us so much. We almost pleaded my brother to let him come and stay with us for five days only. And they are very busy. And it involves some logistics, you know and planning and, and I couldn’t explain myself why I don’t want this so much. We live in this small apartment in a city. So it was, you know, a bit complicated to arrange things. Now, I think this time why I wanted this so much. And why I put effort into arranging this visit of this little vacation that the two cousins have together. And now I think I understand better why this was so important for me. 

Grigory Kharitidis  

Maybe to bring all members of the family under one roof, and to start creating this feeling of home for multiple generations of our family and different branches of our family. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis  

And giving them the sense of an extended family and that it is good to be together, and it was good. 

Greg McKeown  

You’re describing, in my opinion, the use the word against seeds, the seeds of a great vision of what your values can look like when extended beyond yourselves. You feel a little lonely in this three-person family, but you feel this pull towards others, towards others in your family, especially before you after you and wherever they are in the world right now. And I want to emphasize for you that these are your values. Originally in the original email, it was oh it’s hard to identify what they are. And I know that feeling sometimes when we go to try and put words on it. It’s like nailing jello to the wall. You’re trying to get there but it’s hard to make tangible. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis  

Your mind is blank. You kind of think further. 

Greg McKeown  

It can be frustrating. But you do have values. And I can hear them. And in fact, I can hear them quite clearly. And what I would encourage for you is to not give up the journey to putting words to them. You mentioned the Tim Ferriss interview. Towards the end of that interview, he asked me a question which he asks many of his guests. But he said what if you could put one word on a screen or on a big you know, poster and the whole world millions of people or even billions of people could read it. What would it say? And even though he’s asked many people that question, I wasn’t expecting that. So the first thought that came to me was just light. Light. And I want to encourage this idea for you. Because what I mean by it is, is that in each moment in absolutely every moment, we have a choice to work towards the lighter side, or the heavier, darker side. And I don’t mean in some big dramatic way. I think when I was talking to him, I said, Look, I don’t mean like in exactly like in Star Wars, where you go to the dark side, in some dramatic, big way. And if I follow that little light, just a little more, and I keep following it, the values become clearer, it gets brighter, it gets stronger. And my perspective on today’s conversation, is that you’re doing it. I mean, it’s so clear to me that you’re doing it. Don’t knock yourselves for feeling a bit lost, even for six to eight months feeling indecisive don’t not that you’re not just trying to take a step for the sake of it. You’re not just trying well, what other people doing. You’re trying to pause and say, maybe you didn’t use these words. But what’s the light guiding me to what’s this inside what I need? And I can’t find it yet. But I want to but even in this midst of not knowing what to do you still reached out to your nephew, you still had him come, but you still managed to find something that would that would help you still listen to that Tim Ferriss conversation five times, this is part of you searching and finding answers regarding you still email me You still these are all taking steps, you still have this conversation today, which I think could be really meaningful shift and change for you change the trajectory of your inter-generational life. I mean, that’s because of you. That’s because you are taking the steps. And instead of just going back to the old way in which you do only what other people are doing, really, you’re still taking these, the path less traveled. You’re taking this different path, but I want to again, confirm and affirm to you that at least in my opinion, you are getting these little moments of guidance, and you’re following them. And that’s exactly the right path. If you keep doing that, the way will become clearer, bit by bit. Your thoughts? 

Grigory Kharitidis   

Yes, yes, I can say yes, it’s, well, I’m feeling so inspired right now and well not only by this interview and by what you just said, but also because of realizing that we have already taken some steps and we are actually like, we are taking steps. Right we are moving somewhere. Although it might seem to us that we are not. And that is so precious to like to know and well to feel that that you’re moving into some in the direction of light. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis  

Yeah, for me it confirmed is that your guys taking a difficult road and you should keep going. 

Grigory Kharitidis  

But isn’t that exciting. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis  

But this is something to think about. And now I can understand why it has been so difficult and a bit overwhelming to think about these things. They’re not what everybody does, and you begin to question yourself and I personally am a parent and as a wife, and as a person, I have never tried to go, you know, full gear on this little moments that I feel and that I have, I have always been self-doubting. And though I have never enjoyed going the mainstream, really, but I always perceived myself as a bit, you know, quirky. And, and this brought a lot of uneasiness, you know, it makes it feel different. And it makes it feel uneasy, and especially now that I have added this immigrant story to my life, I have been feeling even more different. And it’s been more uneasy, and there are more norms to challenge also, then your child comes into play, because you want him to belong. And you want him to be a part of something good and great. 

Greg McKeown  

You just described a great tension. I mean, first of all, what you said was that you did you feel affirmed, that you feel a little less lonely in this conversation, that you’re doing something purposeful and meaningful. That’s the first thing but the second is this tension, which I completely relate to, between, well, I want to belong a part of a community, that’s part of the vision. But if I follow the light in me, I may be taking a path very different than the community. So, it’s, it’s not just hey, I want to belong, actually, in a way to belong, is quite easy, all you have to do is the same thing everyone else does. I mean, you’re trying to be part of a very particular kind of community, what you want is to be able to, maybe I’m putting words in your mouth here, but what I see for you, is even foresee for you, if you carry on following the light within you, it will lead you to other people who are doing the same thing, you will feel a connection to them. Because they’re also trying to do that. And again, I hope in a small way, that the very fact we’re having this conversation is an evidence of that. I am genuinely, and my wife and I we are genuinely trying to do what you are describing every day, every day, we are trying to do this, what is the right thing, you know, to be an essentialist, at the heart of it is not to do everything that everyone else is doing now, it’s to do the right thing in the right way at the right time. And so it is I think it’s true, at least in the early days, it’s a lonely a journey. But, but over time, what happens is that other people who are trying to do that become clearer to you. This principle we’re exploring today of light is that as you do this, as you are true to what you’re feeling as you keep being open to the next, just that next sort of spark of light, and follow it, do it, immediately do it, then you will start to notice other people who are trying to do that too. And maybe it is fewer people, but you’ll find them, and they’ll be you know, there’ll be special people for you. There’ll be people that you understand in a different way. And you can support each other in a different way. 

Grigory Kharitidis 

You know, it’s interesting that you said that if we follow the light, the guiding light within us, we will start finding those people, we will start finding the community. And I think we have already started finding them. We have a couple of great people who definitely are on the same page. And we just never I think we never thought of them as our community because they leave all around the world. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis 

I want to thank you, Greg. And not only from you know, my behalf, but also from the behalf of the generations before and after me. It has been not an easy conversation for me. I think this is like a stitch one stitch in something bigger, some bigger craft or a bigger kilt that is being made. I’m feeling confident, much more confident now. I’m not feeling happier or lighter. But I’m feeling much more confident to continue working this way. 

Greg McKeown   

It’s been such an honor to talk to you and I am open to continuing this conversation. It feels like there’s a journey that you’re describing, and what you just said there I feel more confident, even though I feel maybe still just as heavy. What I hope for you whether now or in the future is that the heaviness becomes a sweet burden, and that you still feel the importance of what you’re doing. But that you find, well, maybe if I say it this way, light in two ways, light as in, it lights something up, but also that the light can lighten the load. As you as you feel. Okay, sometime not alone in this, there are other people, even if I don’t yet know them, that are going to appear when I need them. They’re going to be part of this. And I’m not alone in carrying the burden, even though I need to do it. Again, thank you. I look forward to continuing the conversation with you. And I appreciate so much your vulnerability and your openness. Because I think so many people will listen to this and will relate to every word of what you’ve said, Yes, they’re not in Finland, maybe. Maybe they didn’t leave Russia, but they know what it feels like to not really belong. And they know what it feels like to want to make decisions that are right inside and feel led. Rather than just doing what other people are doing and they’ll be encouraged and feel a greater courage in listening to your story. And in knowing that they don’t have to just go along with what everyone else seems to be doing that they can choose a different path that they can choose, at least for the language of our conversation, the essential path. And again, I thank you for that. Thank you so much. 

Elizaveta Kharitidis 

Thank you very much.  

Grigory Kharitidis   

Thank you so much, Greg.