SPEAKERS

Anna McKeown, Greg McKeown


Greg McKeown 

If you focus on what you lack, you lose what you have. If you focus on what you have, you lose what you lack. Essentialists, I’m Greg McKeown and welcome to the Essentialism Podcast. This is it. The very first episode and I am so thrilled about that! To be able to come directly to you to share a message that I think can be inspiring, but also practical in helping you to live an essentialist lifestyle. If you don’t know about essentialism, there’s no better place to start then checking out my book, Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit Of Less. Understanding what essentialism is, is looking at the title. It’s the word essential; it’s to look at your life through the lens of that single criteria. Is this essential? And if it’s not, you at least question it, and maybe eliminate it altogether.

For this first episode, I asked my followers on Twitter and LinkedIn who I should have a conversation with. I also wanted to talk with someone who has really had an impact on my life. So that’s why I was absolutely delighted that when I asked all of you on social media, “Who should I interview?” The most frequent answer, the most popular answer, was my wife, Anna. Particular thanks to @austin_strong, who made this suggestion; also Jason Moore @jsmooreoutdoors, and the many people that then participated in that conversation as well supporting it. People wanted to hear from Anna and I’m delighted with that because she’s the most important person to me, she epitomizes everything that’s essential to me. And also, as you will see, she’s absolutely key to the birth of essentialism. Without her there wouldn’t be the book, and there wouldn’t be this podcast. There couldn’t be this podcast. So I’m going to be interviewing Anna as we take you to the very beginning, the birth of essentialism, and also discuss how essentialism has shaped and continues to shape our everyday lives and our everyday decisions.

So by all means subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. I’m going to be reading those reviews; and some of them I’ll read here on air because this is critical to building an essentialist community. And what an exciting idea that is. We’re trying to start a conversation here, and we want you to be part of it. And so with that, let’s turn to my discussion with Anna McKeown. All right, well, here we are. So how are you doing?

Anna McKeown  

I’m doing well.

Greg McKeown 

How are you feeling about this conversation?

Anna McKeown 

A little nervous.

Greg McKeown

But you don’t know, you don’t know quite what we’re doing.

Anna McKeown  

That would be an accurate assessment, Greg.

Greg McKeown  

Yeah. Is that normal with me, do feel that often or occasionally?

Anna McKeown 

I would say often, but I don’t feel nervous often. But we definitely are quite skilled, maybe that’s an overstatement, but we need agility, a lot of agility…

Greg McKeown  

To handle me?

Anna McKeown 

I was gonna say you and I.

Greg McKeown 

In our life?

Anna McKeown 

In our life and in your career, and so we try and roll with things.

Greg McKeown  

Yeah, you’re really good at rolling with that and amazingly supportive in the work that we’re doing. I mean, really, there wouldn’t be an essentialism book and therefore could not be an essentialism podcast without you. I mean, that’s like, that’s a simple fact.

Anna McKeown  

I think we make a good team.

Greg McKeown  

Well, I think we do make a good team. But somebody was just asking me the other day about my writing process for the book. And then he said, “Remember that you wrote that in essentialism about the writing schedule,” and I’d forgotten that was even in there. But that was 4 am in the morning, I would go out to that office and write, and stay there for, I don’t know, at least next six hours, maybe eight hours even. And we did that for nine months if I remember right.

Anna McKeown  

It sounds about right.

Greg McKeown  

Why did you make that sacrifice? Why were you willing to make that trade-off?

Anna McKeown  

We both felt that that was what was required for you to have the mental space, and the focus, and just the ability to write. I wanted to enable that for you. I believed in the project, in your ability as a writer, and I wanted to make that possible. I wanted to absolutely enable that. Not just unselfishly and I mean, sure, if there are some sacrifices that are required; I think that both of us try and make for each other to achieve what we hope to achieve.

Greg McKeown  

Thinking about this, I suddenly am reminded of another way in which essentialism was born. I’ve shared this story a few times now, but I can’t think of any time I’ve shared it when you and I have been together when I was sharing it. This is you know, when people say, “Okay, when did essentialism begin?” There’s lots of ways to answer that question. What they mean is tell us the story of when you, Greg, got it all wrong. That’s what they really mean.

And so the situation was that I had received an email, asking me to be at a certain client meeting between 1 and 2 on Friday. They said, “That would be a very bad time for your wife to have a baby.” That’s what he said. And I have, especially since then thought, “Well, I’m sure they were just joking” or that it wasn’t like a really serious thing that certainly I allow that. But Thursday comes along and that’s when you go into labor.

Anna McKeown  

Well, I mean, the actual details of that situation was that I was overdue. And I’d never been overdue before. So it was, I don’t want to give too many details, I guess. But it was getting to the point where an induction was looking like that needed to happen. And I felt like the whole time we were even in the hospital, you were agonizing over this. Because the baby was coming. So you knew that this baby was going to be here within a few hours and that you had a meeting the next day.

Greg McKeown  

I don’t remember that agonizing.

Anna McKeown  

I remember it taking up a lot of our conversation, is what it felt like to me.

Greg McKeown

But the next day I go to the meeting, to what feels like now to my shame. And afterwards, I remember, my colleague said, “Look, the client will respect you for the choice you just made,” but the look on their faces didn’t have that sort of confidence. It just didn’t seem, I mean, it wasn’t like some home-run thing. And even if it has, it’s clear to me, to everybody, to anybody, who hears the story that I made a fool’s bargain; violated something more important for something less important. And what I always say I learned from it, and what I did learn from it is that if you don’t prioritize your life, someone else will. But what’s your side of that story?

Anna McKeown  

You know, hindsight is definitely, I mean, they say it’s 2020. But we remember things emotionally and you know, I can’t be accurate.

Greg McKeown  

Yeah.

Anna McKeown  

I’m sure, I mean, this was a long time ago. But I remember my emotions around it, and I wanted you there with me. I did. And I wanted you to want to be with me, and I felt vulnerable. I think, for me, when I have babies, it’s a vulnerable time. And it’s hard sometimes for me to advocate. But I mean, how could I really expect you to understand the complexity of emotions that I was feeling in the moment you know? I think I might have said, “No, I want you to make this decision.” But it was a very difficult decision for you at the time. It was very difficult for you to discern what the right thing was, and you call me an empath; I could understand where you were coming from. I could understand the struggle that you were having that there could be real negative consequences of not going to this. And surely, I could sacrifice a few hours with you to go do this thing to support you, you know.

So it is complicated for both of us. And I need to take some responsibility. You know, if I had been more assertive if I’d been like, “No, you can’t go to that meeting tomorrow. I need you here.”

Greg McKeown  

Even the way you just said that is stronger than you would have had to say. If you’d simply said, “No, don’t go to that stay here.” I would have done that.

Anna McKeown

For me, I think it says something about what we were learning still, as a couple, and I have a real aversion to pressuring anybody to do anything. Maybe it’s because I value freedom so highly, because I’m particularly sensitive to manipulation. I don’t like it. I don’t like to feel like someone’s trying to manipulate me. And so there’s something in me that just really tries not to do that to you or to my children. And I don’t want to be the reason, if it’s a decision that you regret, or that you make or that makes you unhappy. I want you to make your decision fully responsible, wanting to make that decision yourself.

Greg McKeown 

You wanted me to prioritize that on my onesie. You didn’t want to have to be the person, the conscience in that moment going, “Come on, you know, pick me.”

Anna McKeown 

Right.

Greg McKeown  

“Or pick this, be here.”

Anna McKeown

Yeah. Now, I think though, I really admire and think that it’s something that I had needed to work on to be able to communicate those things. I think that it’s important, in a relationship, to be able to communicate what is important to you and what you need in a relationship. So I am very grateful for the experience, as challenging as it was, as vulnerable as it was.

Greg McKeown  

You’re grateful for it now?

Anna McKeown  

I am.

Greg McKeown  

Really?

Anna McKeown  

Yes. How would you have learned it?

Greg McKeown 

I suppose that’s right. You know, failure teaches.

Anna McKeown  

Absolutely. That was a lesson that needed to be learned that hadn’t been learned.

Greg McKeown 

But that’s what begs the question, though, doesn’t it? The question is, do you think I’ve learned since then? Honest answer.

Anna McKeown  

Yes. Are you perfect at it? No. Am I perfect at what I’ve been trying to learn from it? No. But absolutely, you’ve learned from it, and it has benefited our lives.

Greg McKeown  

What are the tangible evidences of that?

Anna McKeown  

Putting me on the spot.

Greg McKeown  

Yeah. Is there, is there anything? I mean, it’s easy to say that but, you know, I suppose I’m asking a broader question, which- I think people always want to know even if they don’t say it. Is this Greg, living as an essentialist? You know, and you’re the most credible person to answer that question, you know, in our life.

Anna McKeown

All right. Well, I mean, yes, Greg is living as an essentialist. I would say that. Well, you have an example that you like to give about the closet, and keeping a tidy closet. And I don’t think that I’ve met anybody, not that I’m going into everybody’s closet, but, your closet is impressive to me. It’s so tidy, it is so curated. It really is a sight to behold. My closet is not at that level.

Greg McKeown 

Yours isn’t bad.

Anna McKeown  

It’s not bad.

Greg McKeown  

Yeah, and it’s interesting because, I mean, I do talk about that metaphor of the closet and eliminating you know, everything that’s nonessential in the closet and how that would apply to life. And so for anyone who’s read that or here’s that metaphor, when I’ve shared that with them. Well, okay, they have the answer now about my closet. But when I hear you say it, I think that’s the least important application of essentialism.

Anna McKeown 

But it’s an easy one.

Greg McKeown  

It is easy and it’s concrete. And I’m not trying to knock your example. I’m just putting myself out there more vulnerably about this because, I think, yeah, I mean, organizing your closets is good and metaphorically it’s good too. But the question I’m asking is, am I living as an essentialist in my life?

Anna McKeown

Well, we could get right to something you could improve on.

Greg McKeown  

Yeah, go on.

Anna McKeown 

And it’s not a surprise to you; we’ve talked about it before. And that is trade-off. Trade-off is really difficult. You love to explore and one of the things I love about you is that you hate it when somebody says you can’t do something. I mean, I don’t love that you hate that. I love that you have a kind of optimism about the impossible that many would give up a lot earlier than you to achieve certain things. “Oh he can’t do that.” “Oh, can’t I?” You know? I mean, that’s one of the lovely things about you.

Greg McKeown  

It’s a trigger.

Anna McKeown  

And it is a trigger.

Greg McKeown  

I love that. I just think it’s such an evidence of how lovely you are; that you would frame that in the way that you just did. And with that sort of richness. No, it’s a trigger. If somebody says, “Well, it can’t be done.” I don’t know that it fills me with rage, that’s not quite right.

Anna McKeown 

Yeah, you get a steely look in your eye like, “Oh, yes, I can.”

Greg McKeown 

Oh, yes. I don’t want to be told it cannot be done. Yeah, I just refuse. I certainly don’t think it’s an entirely good trait. It can be a challenge when it comes to essentialism.

Anna McKeown  

It can be a challenge for us, I mean, especially with time. I think, time is where it really becomes a challenge for us because you will want to fit more things into a certain amount of time than I think is possible. And me saying that doesn’t help the situation.

Greg McKeown  

Yes, because I think, oh, you’re disappointed that we can’t do this thing.

Anna McKeown  

Right.

Greg McKeown  

And so I’m like, “Yes, we can.” Which is exactly opposite of what you’re really saying, which is sensibly, wisely.

Anna McKeown  

“I’d like to make a trade-off here.”

Greg McKeown  

Let’s make a trade-off.

Anna McKeown  

Yeah.

Greg McKeown  

But I hear it as…

Anna McKeown  

“Oh, you have to give up on this great thing.”

Greg McKeown

Yes, you would really love to do this. Well, I can try and make that happen. I will make that happen. Is there an example that comes to mind where either we’ve got that right, or we’ve done it wrong when it comes to trade-offs?

Anna McKeown  

Well, I mean, it’s something that still isn’t resolved.

Greg McKeown  

That came really easy to you just then. I thought you were going to be stumped.

Anna McKeown  

I didn’t want to overthink it. But, I think horses, and horses is complicated because I have an emotional, I’ve had an emotional desire to have horses.

Greg McKeown  

For as long as I’ve known you.

Anna McKeown  

Yes.

Greg McKeown  

It’s a very first world problem isn’t it?

Anna McKeown  

Yes!

Greg McKeown  

I didn’t grow up with horses; you didn’t grow up horses. This was like a dream beyond dream that one day, maybe we could do this. When I came to America more than 20 years ago, I literally had no money at all. We have not come from money.

Anna McKeown

No, frankly that’s why we are struggling so much with the horse situation, because we’re complete novices at it. We don’t have the history and the knowledge of- this is how you deal with horses.

Greg McKeown

We are not horse people, no.

Anna McKeown  

No, and so my grandfather was a cowboy, and in Idaho and Montana. That was where he, I’m embarrassed I don’t even know, wrangled cows? Where he herded them? Where he gathered them?

Greg McKeown

You can’t be asking me to give you the answer.

Anna McKeown  

I know. He was a cowboy, and his son, my uncle, owned horses for a while and oh my goodness. If I could ride them, I asked to ride them every time we went to visit him. So whenever I would talk to anyone about owning horses, “Oh, it’s so much work, it’s so much work.” But I was like, I think that’s okay. And I don’t mind if my kids have something physically-

Greg McKeown 

Physical chore.

Anna McKeown  

Yeah, I thought that that would be a benefit as well.

Greg McKeown  

Because this was our family project.

Anna McKeown  

This was my vision, yes.

Greg McKeown 

This is the vision. Well, that stuff, but that stuff has come to pass.

Anna McKeown  

It has very recently, within the last couple of years, and the kids work hard, and I work hard. And I did a lot of the chores in the beginning, and then taught them how to do it and now they do it. And it’s relentless; you can’t just leave. You can’t just take off for a weekend, you need to have someone who can take care of them. So it’s a lot of responsibility in that sense.

Greg McKeown  

And you’re taking the lead on this, completely. I’ve been in a support role.

Anna McKeown 

Absolutely.

Greg McKeown  

And, you know, I would give myself like a “B.”

Anna McKeown 

Very supportive, very supportive.

Greg McKeown

Alright good, “B+?”

Anna McKeown  

In support? An “A.” In work?

Greg McKeown  

Actually going out there and doing it?

Anna McKeown  

It’s not really your thing.

Greg McKeown 

It’s not what we’ve talked about. It’s not like I haven’t done what I said I would do.

Anna McKeown

It’s not like Greg, when I get the horses, you’re going to go up there everyday? No.

Greg McKeown 

But the whole, the dream of it, I have been supportive of. I’ve been wanting to do it and have worked hard to enable this dream to happen. We have two horses now.

Anna McKeown  

Yes, we have a space for them. And now, I’m reaching a point where I am not quite sure that this is-

Greg McKeown  

Worth it?

Anna McKeown 

Yes, yeah. And when I first started bringing that up to you, because I’m sad about it. I feel a little, failure is probably too strong of a word, but a little like, what was this for? Did I achieve what we’d hoped you know? And so when I first brought it up to you, you were like, “Well no, we can make this work. I think we should still do this. What can we do to make this work?” You know? And so every problem that I would bring to you, you would solve.

Greg McKeown 

Like what?

Anna McKeown 

Like we needed more fences, we needed another section of shelter, shed to store their food.

Greg McKeown  

All examples of helping to make this dream continue to be possible, so they’re well intended.

Anna McKeown 

Yeah, but possibly a sunk cost bias. Ah, yeah, it’s you know, and the kids aren’t like, raring to go up there every day. And so for the work, and I am wondering, is it time to move on? And to not do this? And we haven’t decided yet, but I feel like you’ve come around to the possibility of not doing it anymore. But it’s been a journey. Where you originally, when I started saying, “No, I don’t know that we should do this anymore.” You’re like, “We can do this. We can make this happen. We can make this work.”

Greg McKeown  

Yeah, the sunk cost bias was stronger in me than in you, not because of just the time invested in it and so on, the resource invested in it, but the emotional attachment.

Anna McKeown

Yeah.

Greg McKeown  

The dream of it; the romanticism of it.

Anna McKeown

Yeah.

Greg McKeown  

You know, you can make something like this happen, for you, when you have supported me so much in so many ways. What you’re saying is that it can be to a fault because actually what you’re really saying is, “Help me…”

Anna McKeown  

“Free myself from this.”

Greg McKeown  

“To be okay with this. Let me feel sad. So it can be behind me. I want to be sad about not having them. I want to get past that.”

Anna McKeown 

Yeah, I want to process this and hopefully achieve a sort of freedom.

Greg McKeown  

So I want to jump forward now to another way in which you’ve been key to the birth of essentialism. And that was the day that Tina and Talia, and the whole team at Crown, call me on the phone.

Anna McKeown 

Oh, yeah.

Greg McKeown  

Tell us about that moment.

Anna McKeown  

When you found out your book was a New York Times Bestseller.

Greg McKeown  

Yeah. Yeah, but that sounds, now that just sounds like I’m saying, yay for me.

Anna McKeown 

No, that was such a magical moment. That was a dream that you and I had shared.

Greg McKeown  

The thing I remember about that moment in the room together was that we screamed. Both of us, spontaneously.

Anna McKeown 

Lots of screaming, lots of hugs, few tears.

Greg McKeown

It was symbolically way more important than just, hey great you know, this badge of honor. This little named, the little thing. It was such a sense of completion of the last chapter that had been a multi-year process. I mean, whenever something like that happens, when you feel like you’re on an errand, on a mission, and we’re on it together and then it happens. It’s not just the elation of you reached the mountaintop, it’s the feeling that the other mountain ahead of you can also be reached. The other things that seem impossible, now, seem just implausible.

Anna McKeown 

I think that’s a gift of yours.

Greg McKeown 

What is?

Anna McKeown  

Just your vision. You know, and your excitement about achieving the impossible? I wouldn’t say that’s my superpower at all.

Greg McKeown 

But speaking for a moment there about your superpowers. I mean, as you say, “Well those aren’t, that isn’t your superpower.” And I sort of reflect on that, I think, yeah, that’s true. You use the word empath before, which I’m not sure is a word everybody would know. But you understand the meaning of it as soon as you hear the term empath, right? It’s that deep understanding, there’s multi-faceted emotional circumstances. What people are experiencing, how they’re feeling, and feeling it with them, and incenting what they might well be thinking and feeling. And your ability to do that has always been impressive to me, and is a gift. And I’ve felt it towards me; I’ve felt it towards the children. I’ve felt it in almost every analysis that you’ve made over these, it’s not quite 20 years yet, but 20 years this August, since we’ve been married. And there’s so many interactions and conversations you can see and sense the nuance of what they might be feeling, or what might be going on and these multiple levels.

Anna McKeown 

You know, I don’t know. Maybe my training in theater helped with that. But I just, I think it’s so important to be slow to judge, and understanding that there’s just so much going on in everyone’s life. There’s so much that we don’t know. There’s so many possibilities for why someone said what they said or did what they did. And it’s important to strive to be compassionate, and with our children. I mean, one of the very first things I realized with our first was, this child is very, very different from me. Yeah, who is this little person? Because…

Greg McKeown  

I mean, that is really true. And it’s been true as she’s even grown. Now she’s a teenager; you have really different temperaments.

Anna McKeown  

Yes, very different. And I think that could have been a source of conflict in our relationship. And at times, you know, it is challenging. It’s not like, “Oh, I know what to say and how to respond.” And you know, perfectly to all of the developmental.

Greg McKeown  

I think you deal with that really well though.

Anna McKeown  

Well, thank you, I do try.

Greg McKeown

I think you deal with that better than I do.

Anna McKeown

I think you and her are more similar.

Greg McKeown  

Yeah, I think that’s right. There’s a word you haven’t used in all of that description. But I feel like it’s key for what brought us together in the first place. And then it has been key in our worldview towards our children, and then literally towards everybody else.

Anna McKeown 

The world, yeah.

Greg McKeown

And that is the sense that each of us has a unique and essential mission in life.

Anna McKeown  

Yeah, that definitely brought us together. I feel like in an odd way, you know?

Greg McKeown

Well, so we shouldn’t, I can’t imagine that we should go through the entire story here.

Anna McKeown  

I think you could summarize it.

Greg McKeown 

Why don’t you do that?

Anna McKeown 

By what brought you to America, and what was going on in my life, at the time, and how those two things came together?

Greg McKeown  

Yeah, what was going on in your life at the time?

Anna McKeown 

In my life, I was at university getting my undergraduate, and the process to deciding what my undergraduate was actually quite painful. I really wanted to do something, felt like I needed to do something, I think in the humanitarian kind of realm of things. Like being a nurse or something, some way that would bless people’s lives. And yet, I kept feeling drawn to acting, and I had done some theater in my youth, not a ton, but I’ve done some and it was really enjoyable. And I was taken, I just thought for fun for an elective, I’ll take an acting class. And my professor was amazing, Barta Heiner, I just love her to death. And I made some good friends there, and you know, through a series of soul searching and pondering and, frankly, prayer; I took this decision really seriously. And then I felt guided, and I felt a mission about getting my degree in acting.

And then someone suggested I audition for the Music Dance Theater Program, I thought, well, why not? I’ll just give it a shot. And, I made it in, I couldn’t believe it. I just felt excited, I felt right, I felt mission driven in pursuing this. And I thought there’s got to be a way to bless lives this way too. And so I, you know, took that leap of faith and went ahead and got my degree in it, and it was not easy. There’s so much rejection, and I got the question all the time. “What are you going to do with that?” And I didn’t know. But I knew that it was what I was supposed to be doing, and that things would open up. That this was the path I was supposed to be on, even though I didn’t really know what It was going specifically. I knew that I should develop these talents; I should continue to audition. I should, you know, try and make a career out of it.

Greg McKeown 

Yeah, exactly. And meanwhile, so we didn’t know each other at all, but we were going through a similar wrestle. Mine, I come to the United States, I was visiting different friends, somebody put me in touch with Jerry Lund and I went and met with him. And then at the end of this meeting, he says, “Oh, if you do decide to stay in America, then you should come and help me with this, Beyond The Consultation Committee for this curriculum that we’ve been talking about.” And I never did that, but the question had a curious and powerful force about it. And so as I left his office, it’s dusk outside and everybody’s leaving for the day, and I grabbed a piece of paper and I just brainstorm; what would you do if you could do anything? And what I noticed when I look at that list is not what I’ve written down, but what I haven’t written down. Law school is not on the list.

Anna McKeown  

I love this story.

Greg McKeown 

That’s a nice way of saying you’ve heard it before.

Anna McKeown  

I love this story.

Greg McKeown 

And so law school suddenly becomes a question mark. And I wasn’t loving my experience there, but I was at law school in England. And so, you know, it’s still what do you do about it? So I call my parents and my mother answers, fortunately. And she says, “Well, listen, I think you better talk to dad.” And he comes on the phone. After he listened, he said two things. And normally when I share this story, I just share one of them. But he said, “Son, do what is right. And let the consequence follow. To thy own self be true.” Which is a hybrid from two different sources; one of them is a hymn children’s psalm, and the other from Hamlet, because all Englishman quote Shakespeare.

Anyway, the short of it is law school’s out. I mean, what was in, was teaching and writing, but that’s in a sense a placeholder for what the real thing was, which was, you know, mission or bust. Follow your central mission in life and nothing else. And so I went back to England, didn’t go back to law school. I just left and started applying to university in America, applied six months late, had a whole summer where I just started writing and researching. And from that point was born, I say that’s where it was born, but really, the desire was already in me. I mean, that’s the thing, as you talk about our children and our own journey, too. I felt that from so young, and that’s part of the challenge in discovering what your essential mission in life is. Or to even discern what is essential, because sometimes I think it’s so familiar to a person. It’s like that old phrase right? Fish discover water last. It’s that you don’t even notice it. This is just how life is, it’s like you dismiss it out of hand. Oh, well that can’t, you know, that’s nothing special. That’s not, you know, I’m going to go do something serious; look what everybody else is doing. I should do what other people are doing. I should be a lawyer; that’s a sensible thing, that keeps your options open. I will teach and write.

So that was, it wasn’t like that was the birth exactly, but it was the manifestation of it. It was like the first time I was making a proper trade-off in order to pursue it. And that led us to the same university. I went and wrote 200 columns for the university newspaper, and of those 200 how many were published? One. They cancelled it after the first day. Which is not really a great beginning in one’s teaching writing journey.

Anna McKeown  

But I read it.

Greg McKeown

But you read it, but I didn’t know that at that moment.

Anna McKeown 

I know, I felt so oddly giddy reading it, and felt silly because I knew nothing about you. I mean, they had a little introductory article talking about you having quit law school and coming to university in America. And that just resonated with me. I was like, yes, I understand that. I feel that in my own life, and I just didn’t know that I’d ever marry, but, or marry you, that I’d ever meet you. I didn’t know if our paths would ever cross. But I think I went home and wrote about it in my journal because I felt like this was something I needed to record.

Greg McKeown

We didn’t know each other still but there was something noticeable again to literally write it down, right? Noteworthy, literally. Another one of my roommates gave me the paper a few weeks later, and had me read an article, and I read about you in it. Coincidentally, we were working at the same training institute. And really what happened for me from my point of view, is you had said to me now in person, when we had met that you felt a resonance, a sense of alignment, that life is a mission. And an essential mission, and a unique mission that you felt that yourself; suddenly came with greater credibility to me as I see the article and paper is about you being selected as the understudy for Bell in the national tour of Beauty and the Beast.

Anna McKeown  

That’s right. It’s funny how things can change.

Greg McKeown  

Go on. Why do you say that, what does that mean?

Anna McKeown  

My resume was still quite sparse, I guess is the word. And then all of a sudden, this opportunity came. And it’s just, I don’t know, a testament to me of pursuing things that you feel right about when everyone else is wondering why the heck you’re doing it and making the sacrifices you’re making. But you still feel that this is right. And eventually, things happen.

Greg McKeown

Yeah, there’s a principle of build up and breakthrough.

Anna McKeown

Yeah, sometimes it’s logical and you see a path and you know, like to become a doctor, there’s a very clear path. But with other things, you just don’t know when that moment is going to come.

Greg McKeown 

Yeah, and I would argue probably in more circumstances than not, the path is not clear. If especially, if what you want is to pursue is a mission in life and a central mission. Especially if you are trying to, you know, do what you came here to do. Then you will find yourself, at least this has been definitely true for me, on the path less traveled by.

Anna McKeown 

Yep.

Greg McKeown  

And so as a result, you don’t know how to go from point A to point B.

Anna McKeown 

No, and sometimes you’re looking around going it’s pretty lonely here. Is this, you know, no one else is doing this- is this really the right path?

Greg McKeown

Yeah, nobody else is doing this, which is part of the point because it’s a unique mission. But in the moments in between the breakthroughs, you’re in the build up phase and once the breakthrough happens, it’s like, this is what the overnight success story looks like. Is that people just notice the breakthrough. Oh, they’ve been discovered. Oh, they’ve been this. Oh, this thing has happened. As if it just did blossom out of nowhere, but really there has been build up and quiet, steady, small and simple ways just going and keeping on going and keeping on going and then suddenly, something happens. This was suddenly something happening out of this consistent journey that you were on.

And the first year of our marriage was me traveling with you. You know, following you to 24 different cities, and you know, all over North America. And it was this great crash course in America for me; I got to see you perform as Bell 30 times, I would think. And myself, getting to watch that and then of course, every night, I’m out there. I was one of the people selling the merchandise. I mean, there’s a hierarchy and in theater, I don’t know quite what the full top looks like, but I know I was at the very bottom of it. But I think that formed a sort of foundational experience that now is still manifest with our children in trying to help them find their essential mission in life and to remove all non-essentials, including us. I mean just today in our little family, you know, meeting this morning, you were talking to them about that exact thing; that our job is to help get them ready to leave and to want to leave when it’s time. You know, to want to get on to the next phase of their life.

Anna McKeown 

We have three teenagers. They’re, we’re entering that phase where I need to be more of a support than a driver.

Greg McKeown 

I feel like this leads naturally to the essence, really the essence of essentialism. Right? The very center of the center. I mean, we feel that the work of parenting is effectively finished when our children can follow the voice of conscience. And so our job is not to tell them everything. At the beginning, you’re sort of doing more of that, because they’re less capable. But at every possible turn, it’s to remove that and instead, create an environment and a culture, and my heavens you’ve done such a good job at doing this, an environment that allows them to grow into that clarity. So that they can themselves set goals; that they feel uniquely pulled towards drawn towards, that they have a gravitational pull to do those things. And that’s our job. I think that’s universally applicable. Essentialism isn’t saying no to everyone and everything without thinking about it; that’s like the first counterfeit.

Anna McKeown 

Definitely not. I mean, the one of the very first things in your book is explore. That is such an important thing that needs to happen to be able to discern what you are choosing. With my own children I want to explore who they are; I want them to explore what their interests are and what sparks joy, you know, to use word of Marie Kondo. I think, I really like her philosophy with organizing and I think there’s something about that in organizing one’s own life is- what sparks joy. And, I mean, I do hear us and recognize we are speaking from a place of privilege where we have a lot of options, but I still think that what sparks joy is a question anyone can ask. While options might be seemingly limited, by following that by trying to do those things, and do the things that will take you to where you’re hoping to be, is something anyone can do.

Greg McKeown  

Mm hmm. Yeah, I agree with everything you’re saying. This idea of what essentialism isn’t, it’s not just saying no to everything- that’s no-ism. That’s a different kind of book. This is about pursuing what really matters. You know, a lot of people get caught up on the elimination thing, which I completely agree that elimination is important as part of the process, and I do emphasize it. We need to make trade-offs, we need to rid ourselves of the other things that get in the way.

Anna McKeown 

Well, especially in a world where stuff is being shoved at us constantly.

Greg McKeown  

Yeah, we’ve been bombarded.

Anna McKeown 

We are being bombarded, absolutely. Absolutely.

Greg McKeown

Just this last week. I remember on one of the days just feeling flooded with all the noise. There’s a lot of fear right now, there’s a lot of panic right now, there’s a lot of uncertainty. We have no control over many of the things going on right now. And, I felt this awareness that I was feeling; I was working hard and we were communicating, we were talking about things. But I just felt myself, it was harder and harder to really hear that calm guidance, that this is the right way. You know, so essentialism is doing the right things, in the right way, at the right time. And so the price is primarily pushing out all the other noise, all the other voices, to be able to hear that most essential voice that carries you through. And I think that is a timeless and timely principle and practice; that in good times and bad, in relatively certain times, and in times of just crazy complexity, uncertainty and so on volatility- it’s the same principle. In times when we have had no money at all. In times, where we’ve had masses of student debt, and no money at all. At times when the children were little.

Anna McKeown

I know, everyone is sending their kids to preschools, and sports, and music, and we couldn’t afford any of those things. And I was panicking going, “Oh, my goodness, are we, am I too late? Can we not?”

Greg McKeown 

“We’re going to be behind.”

Anna McKeown  

Yeah. Yeah.

Greg McKeown 

And for a lot of people listening to this, I mean, there’s such a huge range of experiences right now. That heartbreaking situation where so many people are literally in food banks for the first time in their lives. People who have previously, maybe were living paycheck to paycheck, who now have lost that paycheck and have no certainty as to what comes next. Many millions of people suddenly on unemployment benefits that weren’t before. Plus, you’ve got some people on there that maybe on the other end of this spectrum where they are, that they actually have full employment and so on, in that sense they’re okay. But they still are now for the first time working from home. Yeah, first time that homeschooling, they’ve got all of this uncertainty too. And I suppose what I’m asking you, and I’m asking me to is to what extent does this element of essentialism, this core tenet of it, apply across the board? Does it apply? Or is it really just a place of, yeah, it’s fine for the privileged, but it’s not okay for everybody else?

Anna McKeown 

Well of course, I believe that it does apply. I can only speak from my own experience, and that is limited. But when our children were young, and we didn’t have money, things were stressful and tight. I think that was a time when I started reading to them; it became a really beautiful habit. You know, you might look at that and go, that’s not essential. And, you know, maybe it isn’t. But it made all the difference. It was something that drove our family together when we didn’t have much. And that brought in voices of simpler times, some of them voices of wisdom, heroes, aspiration, humor, adventure, doing hard things, these mentors from these books.

And I just believe wherever we are, if we do the best with what we have, we will get more out of it than we put in. And we will be guided as we listen, as we’re able to clear out the voices that are competing for our minds for a time, for our resources, for our brains. You know, that we will be guided to do what’s essential and that those things will lift us to a higher place.

Greg McKeown 

And if I had to summarize, like the most important learning from the last couple of years of our life, I would say gratitude is there. Maybe the most important.

Anna McKeown

I think maybe for my whole life. I mean, there were times before we ever met, where gratitude changed my life.

Greg McKeown

There’s so many lessons to pull from this, but one that I feel like I’ve been able to articulate recently was this. If you focus on what you lack, you lose what you have. If you focus on what you have, you lose what you lack. Everybody’s had experiences that were uncertain, stretching, challenging, unexpected. Everybody right now is dealing with something and many things. And so I just feel like this idea of gratitude in all things, for all things; believing that every experience can be for you, not just happening to you is a particularly powerful principle relevant right now. It’s like the essential thing right now.

If you can focus on what you’re grateful for, then it will generate positivity around you. You can create that positivity right now and that can generate the same kind of magic, even in difficult times; help make the pivot faster, help make the shift to what opportunity is here, clearer than before.

Anna McKeown

I think there’s no end to the power of gratitude. I’m not saying it’s a cure-all exactly. I mean, I know there are traumatic things that people go through.

Greg McKeown  

You’re not saying gratitude is a quick fix.

Anna McKeown 

No, and not the only thing ever needed. I think it’s pretty close.

Greg McKeown  

Might be the closest thing we have to a quick fix and a cure-all.

Anna McKeown  

Well, certainly with the normal human challenges of life.

Greg McKeown  

Hmm, I’ve noticed with our children, we’ve been instituting a policy recently, where it’s fine to complain but every time you complain, you have to say something you’re thankful for afterwards. Remember, Jack one time complained about something, and I was “Okay, well that’s fine, you can complain, but now you got to say something you’re thankful for.” And grumpily, he said, “Fine, I am thankful for seven grains of sand.” That is what he said. And then he complained again a moment later so he had to do it again; the other children were there too. And he said, “Okay, fine. I’m grateful for six grains of sand.” And here’s the thing, and he kept doing that, random numbers of grains of sand. And he just thought it was, he thought it was so clever, he was delighted with it because he knew he could do it forever. Here’s the thing about gratitude.

Anna McKeown 

It made everyone laugh.

Greg McKeown  

That’s what I’m saying. Is that when you’re grateful, even when it’s rumpy gratitude, it’s so powerful. It changes the mood. I have yet to see this not be true. I’ve had the children sometimes go, you know, I’ll say “Okay, right we’re all gonna say three things we’re thankful for.” And I’ve had them go, “I’m so grateful that dad wants to play that dumb gratitude game right now.” And it doesn’t matter, it changes the feeling, it’s a powerful thing. That is what I’ve learned. And right now, I’m so amazed at how quickly it shifts things. So normally I don’t, I say nothing is a quick fix, nothing’s a cure-all; but this is pretty close.

And as people are trying to have a rebirth in their lives right now, right as they’re trying to figure out the whole world is asking this question, what’s essential, now? I’ve never seen anything like that number of people being confronted with that reality, and everyone’s doing that. I think these principles like right there, this is what will give us the energy and the insight to be able to do that work. Give us a final word.

Anna McKeown  

No pressure. I think it’s within everybody’s ability to discover what is essential to them. I think it takes time. I think sometimes you already know. I think that we don’t give ourselves enough credit. We don’t always listen to that voice inside of us to the things that we really do know or really do believe, because the voices of others are so loud sometimes. And I know that certainly I’ve found a lot of confusion sometimes, in all the voices out there, there’s so many opinions. But I think that we really do know what is essential for us, and that if we take the time to find that out and to prioritize it, that we’ll have that peace and confidence that we’re doing what really matters.

Greg McKeown

This is Anna McKeown, the most essentialist person in our home, the true enabler of book, now this podcast and many other things. I feel sure will still be built as we turn this conversation into a movement. Of course, the most essential person in my life, you embody everything that matters most to me. A person of great wisdom, I am delighted to have had this conversation. I am delighted for anybody to have heard this and to be able to have a sense of what the journey has been to this point. I really do sort of think this, what we’ve talked about, is like the birth of essentialism. So thank you.

Anna McKeown  

Thank you.

Greg McKeown 

So thank you for listening. If you’ve enjoyed the podcast, then please subscribe on Apple or Spotify, Stitcher, Google. And please leave a review of why essentialism matters to you so that we can extend this and invite other people to be part of the essentialism family. Continue this conversation by following me at Gregory McKeown on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram. Follow the podcast as well for updates and inspiration, facebook.com/essentialismpodcast or twitter.com/essentialismpod. We’ve made the next few episodes available ahead of time with exclusive bonus material, interview transcripts, and an invite only site community for those essentialists who support our community via Patreon.

This podcast was produced out of pocket by myself and my partners at Wheelhouse, so anyone who can jump in and really invest in this, is appreciated. If you’re on Apple podcast, check out the show notes to subscribe. If not, we’re at patreon.com/essentialismpodcast, and also you will find out there, whatever actually happened to the horses. Thank you.


Greg McKeown

Credits:

  • Hosted by Greg McKeown
  • Produced by Greg McKeown Team
  • Executive Produced by Greg McKeown