15. Ben Bergeron on Defining Success and Chasing Excellence

Speakers

Greg McKeown, Ben Bergeron

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Transcript

Greg McKeown   

Dear essentialists, thank you really for listening to the Essentialism podcast. It’s such a pleasure to be able to be part of building this amazing community of people. I have received so many emails from this essentialist community of people who are making progress in their journey as a result of Essentialism the book, now the podcast and of course the newsletter. And this week I received one that impacted me personally from Joe. I’m just going to read the whole thing in full. She writes: 

“Hi, Greg. I’m Joe and I’m an essentialist. I read your book on holiday about four years ago and I confess I cried. The bit about your conflict during the birth of your child really resonated with me as a type-a full time working mom of two girls. I was in a blur of busyness since I was young, which was accelerated when I became a mum. I’m ashamed to say that at some stages, I wished I would get ill, so that it would at least give me a break from the relentless thrust of life. I had some mental issues at the time, but of course I did. I took to reading your book every six months as I believe essentialism is a muscle that needs working out. It easily gets flabby if you’re not careful. From that day onwards, I always have at the top of my to do list, what is the most important thing I need to do today? And I try to do that first. For the first two years, it tended to be a work that made the list. But as I made some big life changes to protect the asset, some personal self-ones appeared on there too. I guess the most significant aspect of being an essentialist happened two and a half years ago. My mum hadn’t been very well for a few months, nothing serious, just lots of infections, which she had seen her GP about. She had one trip to hospital as one particular infection had flared up quite badly but was discharged. She was quite jolly about everything. I offered to go and see her, but she said don’t be silly darling, you have far too much on your plate. So I didn’t. A month later, I got a call from my dad who said mums in hospital again. I said do you want me to come down dad? No dear, you have far too much on your plate, we’ll be fine. I remember that moment exactly. Where I was sitting what the weather was like, I remember thinking, what is the most important thing I need to do today. I was a consultant and I had a big job with my client and was working on a day rate and we needed the money. But something said to me, the most important thing you need to do today is drive down to the hospital, two hours away and see your mom. I took my laptop of course, like a blooming badge of productivity. I went to the hospital. I sent dad home for a rest. Mom told me she loved me, I told her I loved her, and that she would be okay. It was nothing serious, but she looked terrified. An hour later she had a seizure and was put into a coma in front of me. And a week later, I switched off her life support machine after she died of sepsis. It could have been different if I wasn’t an essentialist. I still exercise my essentialist muscle and yesterday I took the morning off work to catch up on your podcast. The episode with Danielle was great. I have a big job decision to make and I couldn’t work out why I felt so sad and tearful and as soon as I heard that podcast the skies cleared, because I don’t want the bigger job. I want to live wholeheartedly my ordinary life. Phew, that was a close one. Today, you were my most important thing. What you do makes a difference. And you need to know that, Joe.” 

Well look I don’t know about the rest of you, but I felt inspired reading that letter and the many others like it. It helps to know that this podcast is making a difference. And if you’re finding the podcast useful, please subscribe and make sure to share it with the most important people in your life. You’ll have so much better chance of being an essentialist if you have other people on the journey with you. Also, I’m preparing for the first ever ask me anything episode. So please go to Essentialism.com and email me, you know, well, anything you want me to answer. And while you’re there sign up for the one-minute Wednesday newsletter and you get an email just once a week, very short one minute long that helps you to apply each episode of the podcast. Speaking of which, in this episode, I’m delighted to have Ben Bergeron with us. He is a coach to basically the fittest people in the world. He has an avid following, and he is himself an avowed essentialist. In fact, when I learned of some of the things he has done to apply essentialism, I felt inspired and have made changes myself to do what he is doing. I think that it may have the same effect for you so enjoy this essential conversation with Ben Bergeron. 

Greg McKeown 

Okay, but please carry on and we don’t have to officially get into it. But you will say, now I’ve got it on recording. But you were saying something nice about Essentialism, the gist of it. 

Ben Bergeron   

So I am an essentialist at heart. I was an essentialist before I read your book. It was as educational and prescriptive as it was reassuring, as you were just speaking in terms of like not doing the big but doing the small making it sustainable. Fulfillment is at the core root of what makes us happy, thus successful. And it sounds like this is another opportunity to find out the tips and tricks and examples of why that’s the case.  

Greg McKeown   

Describe it to me, what does living as an essentialist look like for you? 

Ben Bergeron   

To me it is living a life true to your core values and principles. So you have ultimate fulfillment, in the process, throughout your life and clarity on what you’re trying to create in the moment. So the way I’ve done that is spent an exorbitant amount of time three years, laying out what are my values? And what are the core underlying principles that stand up the what are the pillars of each of those values? 

Greg McKeown  

You have a document that this has written it? 

Ben Bergeron    

Yes. From there, I tracked each of those. So I created a to-do essentially, for each of those principles. That end up being about 25 of them. So I had five values. And I had five measurables for each of those values, that I tracked Monday through Friday. And I did that for about three years. So one of those things was family first as an example. So in order for me to put my family first again, you have to prioritize it. One of those things very simple. I’m going to be home at six o’clock every single night. So every single day I would track whether I was home at six o’clock, we would have family dinner every single night. So I would track all the nights that we would have family dinners and so forth and so on for about 25 of those measurables. So I have set up ahead of time, what is my true essential purpose, values, and principles, and kind of lean into those guys. 

Greg McKeown   

I heard that you did that, and I was really intrigued by that. So just slow it down a little more for me. So you’ve already set up in advance, you know, at 6pm, I walked through the door that’s aligned with my value. This is my metric to make sure I’m actually living it. There’s a clear boundary. You are in the meeting. Is this just an internal meeting you do this or any meeting that you’re in? 

Ben Bergeron   

Any meeting I’m in. 

Greg McKeown   

Do you warn them upfront or do you just 

Ben Bergeron   

I have a hard 525 cut off time guys. 

Greg McKeown   

That’s normal. People understand if someone has a hard stop, they ask you, hey, do you have a hard stop, and you just know you always do every single time. 

Ben Bergeron     

So maybe the backup even before that, because that’s the actionable that comes about. So the core values. family first, humble, hungry, honest and healthy. So those are my core values. And each of those has five kind of measurables for each of those things. So family first and four h’s. I need to be able to conceptualize. I need to put these things in nice clean little buckets. So what I have is memorable. FF family first and then the four H’s. The easy one is like healthy so people can kind of like this is very actionable, right? So healthy for me is I’m getting seven and a half hours of sleep every night. That is one of the things I have to do every single night. Now I’d love to strive for eight but I’m checking the box if I get seven and a half worked out Monday. through Friday, so I go to the gym Monday through Friday, not eat any processed foods or drink half my body weight in water, you starting to define the health bucket. 

Greg McKeown   

Okay, take me from the beginning. First line start with family first is your highest value and take across the tool that you use. Family First is the value what comes next? 

Ben Bergeron   

Yep, family first is the value. It’s on a Google Doc. So the row is family first. Underneath that the five components that I’ll use to measure whether I’m putting family first. They were things like be home at five o’clock, family dinner, we called it  no separation Sundays. So I was like, I did not leave the family. We went to the grocery store, the whole family went to the grocery store. And then it was like, go to every single kids’ game or practice. It was things like that. 

Greg McKeown  

Those are your metrics for that value. Next column. 

Ben Bergeron    

Yep. And then the next column was Monday and with a date, and then it was do they get a checkmark? Did I do these on Monday? 

Greg McKeown   

So it’s literally just accountable because it’s a metric. By definition, it’s measurable. You are just literally saying, did I do those things today, Monday, and so then the next column is Tuesday, and so on. That’s what you’re saying. Okay. So, there’s only really two columns of content. And then there’s accountability of the rest of these, and you did it three years. 

Ben Bergeron   

Yes. It wasn’t set in stone; I would find things that work and things that didn’t. I think what you said is really poignant. What matters is the clarity and the intention.  

Greg McKeown   

Yes.  

Ben Bergeron   

So I always think that there’s three things in life that can guide us along the way. First one is awareness. You need to be aware of things it’s, it’s really hard to change a bad habit. If you’re not aware of how bad to have it his or how often you do it. The next one is intention. You have to intentionally go about changing your environment go about changing your routine go about changing, you have to be very intentional with that. And the third one is perspective. Comparison is the thief of all joy, which I think is what so many people do is they try to compare themselves like, where am I now versus where I want to be versus. Am I making progress and all the rest? So you’ll do what I’m trying to do with this is just that I’m trying to become aware of what’s most important to me. I’m trying to be intentional with it, and then use the perspective of Are these the right things I should be measuring along the way? 

Greg McKeown  

Yes. What you just told me, I think, is that as you were setting up this Google Doc, for clarity and accountability, you kept evolving it. It wasn’t one time and then three years of execution. It was an iterative process. At first. These were the values over time you said, well, something’s missing. It sounds like what was missing was specifically calling out family and saying, you know, that’s a stakeholder, the relationships that, that I need to specifically put first otherwise, that easily shift into second or third or fourth place, without meaning to. I want to come back to the other areas in a moment, but I want to stay on that first area of family first. So 6pm through the door, give me the next one. What was the next metric? 

Ben Bergeron    

Family dinners, eat together. 

Greg McKeown   

So talk to me about that. Was it simply enough that you sat down together, and ate. Was it okay if you went out together? 

Ben Bergeron   

So in order to be able to check the box for me, it was just that we sat down, and we weren’t doing this at all. I mean, when I started measuring it, I was appalled at how little we were doing this. It was down to like once a week with efforts, because what we would do is we’d say we have a family of five. And what we would say is if one person wasn’t here, I was like, okay, just everyone can do their own thing. And we’re waiting for us to have this moment where we would have like a family dinner, and it became like Sunday nights at best and usually it was the even less frequent than that. So what I did was change the metric to, as long as whoever is in the house sits down and has their dinner together. It doesn’t have to be a shared family style. Somebody could be having salmon, and the kids could be having hotdogs, that’s okay. As long as we’re sitting down together, eating at the same time, that counted. And when we did that, I mean, it’s our default. Now we have it, It’s every night. So it’s amazing how that when you chase perfection, it can be discouraging. When you allow yourself a little bit of wiggle room, how it can actually change the outcome in a massive way. So we don’t do screens, we don’t do technology. But for us, it’s everyone sitting down together and having dinner at the same time. 

Greg McKeown  

I still want to plum again, this family first category because I found it fascinating so far, that the third thing on the list was, what did you call it? 

Ben Bergeron    

The third one the list now is contact my wife Heather before 5pm. So that’s in the middle of the day call her, text her. Basically, in terms of five love languages, she speaks the one of time she wants the attention. 

Greg McKeown   

Right, if you don’t do that it signals disproportionately that you don’t value her. You could think, well, I’m trying to provide for our family I, I feel love for you, I would do anything, If you asked me to do something. You could be all of those things, but if that’s not what she values, then you could be undermining that relationship in a way you didn’t mean to. 

Ben Bergeron  

This has been exposed to me a lot. I think that quarantine can do this is you know, I’ve really kind of been exposed to my relationship and leadership biases, versus the way that other people expect to receive it. This first got exposed through the employment situation I was, where I am, I’m a business owner and a boss and a leader in my business and realizing that some of the ways that I was giving quote unquote trust, giving love, giving feedback that you’re doing a good job was not being It was not being received the way that others were being accepting it. 

Greg McKeown  

Something I’ve learned is that what’s essential to someone else needs to be as essential to us as that person is to us. 

Ben Bergeron  

I love that. 

Greg McKeown  

The next metric in your family first was what? 

Ben Bergeron  

So now we’re down to home by six, family dinner, contact Heather before five o’clock, and the next two are call mom and call dad. 

Greg McKeown  

Every day? 

Ben Bergeron  

Nope, so that is that was just twice a week for each of them. 

Greg McKeown   

So almost every other day you’re talking to your parents. That’s the goal. 

Ben Bergeron 

Yes, I’m a big believer in you know, momentum. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion. objects at rest stay at rest. If you want to push your your car across the parking lot, those first few steps are a max effort. But after you get the thing going for 20 or 30 meters, it’s a lot easier. And by the time you get to 50, 60, 70 meters, it’s almost like you’ve seen a couple fingertips on it. Create a low barrier to create some short-term successes. It’s built into our DNA, you get a hormonal response that dopamine of like, I can do this, check the boxes, this feels good. I’m being successful, I can win at this. That’s what creates the momentum. And then you’re able to, you know, this comes from my coaching background a little bit, but that’s how you create the short wins to create long term change. 

Greg McKeown  

I love what you said, and it makes me think that what you really want is for, for what’s essential to feel about the same level of difficulty at all times. Yeah, I like that. My general view is that it should feel in a way it should feel easy. Not too easy, because actually, if it’s too easy, it doesn’t feel easy anymore. It feels boring and you don’t really care anymore. So it starts to feel hard for a different reason. But that sweet spot at the first, I love what you said, low barrier of first, yes, make it the lowest possible barrier so that you can start beginning you have that feeling. And I think it’s a perfect phrase that we want. It’s not it’s not a fancy phrase, but I think I can do this. I can do this. There’s a physical reaction I notice in people when they hear something, I hear a challenge and they go, yeah, I think I can do that. Then now moving into action almost immediately because it’s doable. And that’s what you always want it to be. It’s doable. Okay, let’s do the next thing. It’s doable. 

Ben Bergeron  

Yeah, that’s really good. I love that. 

Greg McKeown    

Let’s talk about what you are known for publicly. We’ve talked about this family first, and I love that process. As I think for a lot of people listening, they’ll have concrete tangible things in that area. You train effectively the fittest people in the world, to train for world championships within CrossFit, performed Ironman competitions X number of times, and you now have created a space as an elite coach for elite performance. Am I getting it right? 

Ben Bergeron   

Yeah, that’s in a nutshell. I work with a small handful of the elite competitors in the CrossFit space. And one of the sayings that we have that drives their effort intention is and it’s I think it’s from Truman, or one of the Presidents is, do what you can, with what you have, for where you are. So in the elite athlete world with sport that we train with which is CrossFit. We are in a constant state of unknown. We don’t know what the event is that they’re going to compete in. We don’t know if it’s going to be swimming, If it’s gonna be weightlifting, if they’re gonna have to do pull ups, if they’re gonna have to run up a mountain with a sandbag, if they’re going to have to bike 100 miles, it could be anything. Because of that there’s a massive psychological toll in the sport. Because no matter how well you prepared, you ultimately feel unprepared. So what the saying is what we need to practice every day in the gym, and in training is doing what you can with what you have for where you are. I t’s not going to be perfect, you’re not going to feel great. You’re not going to be able to execute the way you would in a vacuum, or in a perfect scenario. That doesn’t matter. One of the first conversation I have with my athletes is understanding what’s inside you’re control, and what’s outside your control. And this is like, you know, success literature, one on one, or stoic philosophy at its core, and it’s not new to anybody. But the amazingness is that regardless of how common this is, how difficult it is for athletes or anyone to put into practice. 

Greg McKeown  

I come to train with you, first day, what do you say? 

Ben Bergeron  

The first day or two, we’ll sit in front of a whiteboard. And we’ll do a brainstorming session. And we’ll go through all of the things that might take up some mind space might worry you are in issue that we should be thinking about or anything that could go wrong in training or in competition. And then we’ll very simply, the next piece of the exercise is, let’s categorize these. Are these things that we can influence and change, or these things that are ultimately outside of our control and we should be ignoring, and then from there, the next part of piece of the exercise is, let’s go through the and categorize these as controllables or uncontrollables. 80% of things that you think you’re are you’re worried about are ultimately outside your control and literally just get brushed off your shoulder if you practice, being able to brush those things off your shoulders, there are things that we sort of can control in between, we’re going to take the necessary steps, those become controllables. And then there are things that are totally, completely 100% inside of your control. And these are the things that we lean into a lot. These ones define what we call the process, and they are your training, your nutrition, your sleep, your recovery, and your mindset. There’s only five things in the athlete’s world that they ultimately need to be paying attention to at a constant basis. Anything outside of that is a distraction. Now, we could whittle that number down even closer from that five to two There’s really only two things at all that you need to worry yourself at any time. Your preparation, are you as prepared as you possibly can be? And your effort. Anything outside of those things is essentially outside of your control. Prepare as best as you can before this is leading up to, and then in competition, give your very best effort. And once you pare it down to those things, the scoreboard I’m in last place, a workout that popped up that’s completely outside my wheelhouse, the judges calling no reps, all of those things are just expected adversities. And what we can do is we can expect adversity and we can expect to overcome it if we lean into those two principles. 

Greg McKeown   

So you said something a moment ago that you can get good at shifting from the thinking about things you can’t control the things that you can control. How does somebody do that? 

Ben Bergeron   

Yeah, it’s practice. And the first part of it becomes awareness, you have to be aware of when you are focusing on things that are outside your control. That’s a lot harder than I think most people would give it credit for. Because what it is the way we define that, first and foremost in our biggest red light, our biggest trigger that you’re focusing on something that’s outside your control is complaining. If you complain, if you whine or if you make an excuse, you are essentially highlighting something that you don’t have control over. So if you say like, we’re doing it open water swimming, and it is 65 degrees out in the water temperature 60 degrees and it’s rough water. If you start complaining about how cold you are, about how rough the seas are, or how uncomfortable any part of this is, you’re highlights, you’re paying attention to things that are outside your control. Now if you go, no, like I, I’m just saying this because I want to be warmer, okay? Then that’s inside your control, don’t complain about it. Be proactive and do preparation. Now that’s preparing so you’re pulling it into your control. Essentially, there is no place ever in our repertoire for complaints, an excuse or a whine. We actually have bracelets that we all wear, they are white bracelets that on them say, never whine never complain, never make excuses. And if you hear somebody make one of those things, you say, I’m wearing it right now, you snap it on yourself. And you bring to light that that complaint, that focus on something that is outside of your control is actually hurting us. It’s hurting us in our performance. What you’re doing is you’re highlighting something that’s a negative. If you start to highlight things, it’s frequency illusion. It’s been it’s been called a lot of different things. But if I say have you’ve seen all the yellow cars out there, you start to focus on yellow cars. Well, if I’m telling you to focus on bringing attention to negative things, you see more negative things, and you see more obstacles than you do opportunities. This physically hurts us, because you only have so much resources, time, energy and effort to spend on things. If you are spending your efforts, your resources on things that are outside of your control, you’re burning up matchsticks. And literally, actually thoughts, consume calories, you’re burning up our necessary calories on things that are not gonna move us towards our destination in our goals. This is destructive to our process. So that’s why we snap it to bring awareness that you are actually hurting the process. 

Greg McKeown   

I think that there’s something intriguing about this, not just that we shouldn’t complain, which I think is a big part of what you’re saying. But it’s that the use of complaining as an early warning signal, it’s using that behavior to your advantage because otherwise, it’s just a concept. Is it in your control? Is it not in your control? Okay, people understand that they hear at once they can comprehend the point. But on an ongoing basis, the behavior that you’re looking for the way to increase awareness is, are you complaining if you’re complaining, either you’re complaining about something you could have control over? So focus on that? are you complaining about something you don’t have control over? So it’s a complete waste of your energy, but either way, the complaint is actually the trigger for this new behavior. 

Ben Bergeron  

Yeah, that’s exactly it. We’re trying to create awareness. So that’s why we have the bracelets that’s why we call people out. So we are very deliberate and aware of our language. We believe that Your thoughts become your words, your words become your actions, your actions dictate your destiny. Well, it’s really difficult. I’m a seasoned coach, but I’m not good enough to read minds yet. So I’m not there. What I can do though, is pay attention to the words that you’re saying. And if you’re saying things like, I have to go work out today, that to me is a negative, because you’re saying you have to do this. Recognize the opportunities that are in front of you. You don’t have to do this. You get to do this. So we switch have to’s into get to’s. You don’t have to go to the gym. You don’t have to pick up your kids from school. You don’t have to cook dinner tonight. Those are all things that are opportunities for you that you get to do. We are very, very aware and strict with the words that we use because we believe that I can break the chain. Thoughts, words, actions, destiny, I can get people to perform act better if I get them to shape their words better, because that will then shape their minds. 

Greg McKeown 

I suppose it begs the question, how can somebody, well, let me put it in two; can somebody get into the right mindset on command? Answer to that first. 

Ben Bergeron  

Yes, it just takes a lot of practice. What we need to be able to do is see an essential approach to your practice. You can get good at it. But it takes a certain level of awareness. And like any good practice, it takes a feedback loop. So you know, whether you’re doing it right or not, it takes repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. So it’s not something that can just like happen on demand. But with enough practice, you can train your body to get there and this is where the mindfulness movement has come from, is what people have realized is if I create dedicated space in my day, to become aware of this, then I can bring that into everyday life. And then hopefully what we get to it is when the extremes come at us, and you feel this rage, this embarrassment, this anxiety, this fear, you can see those as triggers to pull yourself back and out of that reactive state. But it’s not going to happen on its own. I think what people think is it’s just who they are and they’re right. It is it’s built into your DNA to be reactive, we as human beings, just like the startle flinch response. 

Greg McKeown   

You’re saying that I need to practice many times to be able to do this when the moment comes, when I feel some emotional reaction to whatever the stimulus is. But still, what do I do for that minute of practice, simple breathing, or more to be able to later call upon this instant mindset reset that I would like to have? 

Ben Bergeron  

Yeah, the biggest one is, again, is awareness when it’s happening, can you recognize that it’s happening? Because that’s a huge step. If you feel anger bubbling up, and you lash out without ever saying, like, the introspection of like, oh, here it is, I’m, I’m feeling angry right now. What’s causing my anger? It’s like, really, it’s like, it’s taking that second to be aware that this is even happening. And once you become aware that it’s happening and seeing it as a trigger, as a trigger, that should then move you towards yes, as you said, then move you to, I need to take three or four breaths. That’s like step one, that’s like class 101. Are you aware that it’s happening in real time? If you’re aware that it’s happening, take three breaths, and once you’ve done that, you’re ready for level two. And then from there, it’s okay, now that I’m feeling this, what’s the right mantras? What’s the right principles I could fall back on? What is the what do I actually want to come out of this? Can I get perspective? Hindsight in the present moment? You know, aka perspective, can I come out of this moment with pride over the way I’m going to handle the next two or three minutes? Or am I going to come out of this with regrets? 

Greg McKeown   

There’s something I’ve been teaching my daughter, who has not been loving the fact that she just lost out on the last few months of her elementary school experience with her really close friends. And, and all these graduating activities that we’re going to be involved with and she was looking forward to. And we would we’re talking about how to respond and you know, most people I think, even if they’re trying to develop resilience will say, okay, well, let’s come up with Plan B or Plan C. But a friend of mine taught me that what you want to do when faced with adversity is remember that this unexpected thing Is Plan A, that these challenges are happening for you, not to you. And if you can rewire that, then every negative can become a positive. And if you can turn a negative into a positive, you could never be defeated.  

Ben Bergeron  

That is it. So, to me, that is the that is the thing that we should all be aspiring to now, it’s really hard not to merely just accept what the challenges life is bringing to you, but actually cherish them and want them because they are as you just said, these are being put in front of you, for you, on purpose to allow you to grow. 

Greg McKeown  

How does this mindset that we’re talking about help you to live a more essentialist life? 

Ben Bergeron   

To me Essentialism is getting rid of all of the fluff, the bright shiny objects and the distractions. And what you’re essentially, what you’re, it’s hard not to use that word, what you’re, what you’re doing is boiling your life down or editing your life down to the, the most important few. You know, doing less better. So what you can do through this mindset is eliminates a lot of that distraction, is eliminate all of the unnecessary clutter that is clouding your brain. And it’s not just this mental aspect to it. This is really like, I think when people hear mental, they kind of think of it as imagined. And it’s the farthest thing from it. It’s the mental creates the physical, it you thinking of certain things creates a chemical cascade through your body that hormonally changes what’s happening. If we eliminate the distractions by editing our life to the essential few things that you have control over, you get to put your quote unquote matchsticks burn your calories, put your effort towards that, which gets you closer to your goals. People don’t achieve what they want in life, mostly because not because they don’t want it because they get distracted by the bright, shiny objects. 

Greg McKeown  

If you could go through that same experiment for a moment and take your life so far, what you’ve experienced, what you’ve learned, working with athletes, those that make it, those that don’t, those that excel and just summarize this into, you know, you get one tweets worth of space to share this message with the world, with your posterity 100 years from now they just get one thing from you. What is it? 

Ben Bergeron    

Define what success means to you in controllable metrics, then edit your life to anything which is going to distract you from that. 

Greg McKeown   

Give me one more shot, even shorter. You get half the words. 

Ben Bergeron   

Define what success means to you and eliminate everything else around it. 

Greg McKeown   

Okay, half the words again.  

Ben Bergeron   

Pursue only that which moves you towards your goals. 

Greg McKeown   

I think you’re saying define success, eliminate everything else. 

Ben Bergeron   

Define success, eliminate everything else. Thank you. 

Greg McKeown   

Ben, it has been such an enjoyable thing for me today to get to talk to you to, to have this conversation. I’ve enjoyed it thoroughly. Highlights for me include this break down, detailed breakdown about how to translate family first into metrics that are accountable. And also this double click on what it means to have a mindset that can help somebody go from being fragile to fierce, in pursuing a goal that really matters to them. I love the whole conversation beyond that, but those two things stand out. Thank you, Ben, for taking the time. 

Ben Bergeron   

Thank you, Greg. Appreciate it.