Greg McKeown:
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Welcome to The Greg McKeown Podcast, where we explore principles and practices for living and leading as an essentialist. Today, I’m joined by Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. Marshall is the only two-time Thinkers 50 number one leadership thinker in the world. That is, he’s won that honor twice, which is a remarkable achievement in its own right. For over a decade, he’s been recognized as the number one executive coach in the world. He’s guided over 150 major CEOs and their management teams to new heights. Effectiveness. I so want to get into that. He’s also the #1 New York Times bestselling author. He’s written 56 books, which is really quite a thing, and sold over 3 million copies along the way. What Got You Here Won’t Get You There is one of the most significant books that he’s written. Mojo is another, Trigger is another, The Earned Life is another. But he’s on a different kind of journey right now. He’s very interested in how we can democratize leadership learning through the power of AI, and his latest venture, Marshall Goldsmith AI represents a leap into the future, an investment into the future, and as I understand it, an initiative that began before chat GPT. There was already work that was being done to try to get all of this great insight out to the world.
There was a transition point, and I’m sure it wasn’t just a single moment, or maybe it was; maybe you can tell us. You said, oh, I grew up poor, and so on, but what you just said was more than that. And then you say, oh, pre-25, was there a moment of change for you? A single moment, or was there a growth, a maturation?
Marshall Goldsmith:
I would say it is more of an evolutionary process. I’ve been studying Buddhism. I’ve read 400 books on Eastern philosophy, Buddhism, Hinduism, et cetera. That’s a lot of years of study. I started that when I was 19. So I think that helps a lot because if you study Buddhism, basically, you learn to make peace with what is. I think it really helps in many ways to become, at least for me, it has helped. I’ll speak for myself. It’s helped me in many ways.
I’m not a religious Buddhist or a spiritual Buddhist. I’m a philosophical Buddhist. And Buddha basically was the; I don’t know if there was a Buddha, but the metaphorical Buddha was brought up in a very positive environment. His father was rich and kind of gave him more and more. He lived in a bubble, and he was able to sneak outside three times. On the first trip out, he learned people get old. He said, that’s no good. Trip number two, you get sick. Trip number three, you die. Old, sick, die very bad. And all this more, more doesn’t help. So then he went out in the woods and tried to be happy with less. Starved himself; didn’t work. Finally realized one thing. There’s only one place you can find happiness and peace. There’s only one time now.
So, for everyone listening, I will explain the concept of Nirvana. Are you ready? Where is Nirvana? Nirvana is listening to two guys talk on a podcast right now. Here it is. Its not out there. This is it. Be happy now.
Greg McKeown:
In this now. What is most important now to you? I don’t even mean the legacy question right now. What is most important to you?
Marshall Goldsmith:
Make peace.
Greg McKeown:
With yourself? With other people?
Marshall Goldsmith:
With life.
Greg McKeown:
Is that a yes, then? Myself and others. But beyond that, as well. Be happy.
Let me ask you this question. Of all the things that you’ve taught, all these books, all these question sets, the tools, what is the tool that has been most useful to people? You know, the thing that has, by evidence of the number of times people have said to you, oh, thank you for that, or the number of times they’ve used it, or it’s been cited by others, like, what’s the tool? You know, as a teacher, as an author, none of us ever write anything we don’t think is going to be useful. That’s the point of the exercise. Something that you think is interesting can be immediately tangible for somebody. Help them with what they’re dealing with. And yet, nevertheless, it’s surprising.
You know, you already alluded to it with four of the New York Times bestsellers. There are certain books that hit and connect it in a different way, and it’s almost mysterious. You don’t know why precisely. And you put the same amount of effort into different projects. Out of all of those, not just the books but the tools within them, what has been the most useful tool to people?
Marshall Goldsmith:
Get over being perfect. Find out what everyone thinks of you, admit you’re human, apologize for your mistakes, and work on getting better.
As a coach, very soon, I got ranked the number one coach in the world for years. Nobody knows I’m a good coach. I can say with absolute certainty I have had the number one clients in the world. You work with those people, you’re going to look like a good coach. So the key is work with them; you’re going to look real good.
And then, on a human dimension, I may sound slightly politically incorrect, but I’ll give you the two things I found that people said really changed their lives beyond better leaders and teams and all that stuff. One is have kids. And two is forgive your parents. And I guess number three is forgive yourself or being human.
Greg McKeown:
When the idea, well, have kids was so normal, normalized, self-evident, that, like, even if we’d been talking, I don’t know, 25 years ago, 30 years ago, and you say that, it’s like, yeah, everybody knows that kind of a feeling. You know, we all know family is the most important thing. And most important, relationships, most important investment.
I was just sent a book to review. I won’t say the book because I’m about to critique it, but it led me on a journey and the discovery of something called antinatalism. And it’s a new philosophical term. First of all, it defines natalism, the belief that having children is good, and antinatalism is the belief that it’s not. There was something very profound about the idea that somebody thought, let’s codify this, give it language, name, structure. It’s different than each to their own; it’s different than there’s trade-offs involved here. It’s a different kind of thing. And the advice you just gave would be pro-intergenerational relationships. That’s what it sounds like to me.
Marshall Goldsmith:
Well, maybe the question is fresh on my mind. I just got an email today from a guy, and he said, “We talked a long time ago, and you told me to have kids, and I have two kids. And thank you. I wasn’t sure I was going to. And I’m so happy I did.” Another guy said, “I adopted kids, and I’m so happy I did. Thank you.”
And look, you just asked me what has had the biggest impact. Yes, one, by the way. The opposite has never happened. No one ever said, “I’m sorry I had kids. Why did you give me that advice?”
It’s been 100% because some people kind of don’t know. Whatever. I’ve talked to him. The second thing is forgiveness. Forgiving your parents is a big deal for so many people. They haven’t forgiven their parents. Sometimes, they’re dead. Let it go. Right. And then just forgive yourself for being a human. So many people, I’ll just say privately, raise your right hand. Repeat it for me. My name is. I forgive myself for just being human. They do it. They start crying. They just start crying. They’ve never forgiven themselves for just being human.
Greg McKeown:
It’s really beautiful. One of the things that’s beautiful about it, what you just said; of course, the major is forgiveness, but the minor is the behavior of saying it. I used to think forgiveness was the whole process of feeling the relief and giving way to the healing and the goodness and feeling good about that person or the parents or whoever it is yourself. But the way you just described it, more, how I understand it now, which is that it’s an act, it’s a thing.
I don’t mean it can’t be both, but that moment of actually saying out loud, “I forgive that person, I forgive my parents, I forgive myself.” There is a version of it that’s an action, and the feeling comes later. Maybe we don’t even have control over it, but the action is something we can directly control.
Marshall Goldsmith:
Yeah, I would say that at least 100 times I’ve said to someone, “Please raise your right hand. Repeat after me. My name is. I forgive myself for just being human.” And they just started crying.
Greg McKeown:
So, this is in a coaching practice situation. This is professional most of the time.
Marshall Goldsmith:
People come to visit me all the time. Anyone listening wants to come to my home in Nashville. My email address is [email protected]. I go for a walk every day, so I talk to people all the time.
Greg McKeown:
Sometimes, it’s those people, not the executives; it’s the individuals you meet along the way.
Marshall Goldsmith:
Anybody listening to the call. I don’t have to know you.
Greg McKeown:
Anybody listening to this who simply says those words like, we know the intent behind our language matters. And so, if we say things insincerely, that’s not the same as saying them sincerely. But words are so powerful in and of themselves that I think even if you say them in a sort of, “I don’t know if this will work. I don’t know if this will be true. I don’t know if I believe that this will help.” But you still do it. You still say the words. Now, you can hear those words in your own voice. And I think that in the process of saying something true, it manifests itself to you as true.
There’s this beautiful little story that I read years ago. I can’t find the reference to it now, but it was two children who got into a fight, and I don’t even remember the genders now, but one of them runs inside crying, upset at what’s just happened, and the mother’s there with them. And she said, “Well, tell me what happened and why you’re upset.”
“And, well, you know, my brother called me stupid. You know, he said I was so stupid.”
And they said, “Well, listen. Step close to me, and I want to say something to you. I want you to listen to it, and I want you to tell me what you feel when I share it with you. I want you to be able to tell me whether you feel it’s true.” And she leans forward, and she says, “You are stupid.”
And the little child, not expecting that message, feels within and suddenly feels light and says, “It’s not true. It’s not true. I can feel that that’s not true. The words hurt because I thought they might be, but I can feel now that they’re not.”
There’s something about spoken language that can reveal to us something is true or not true. And I just think there’s such a precious little gift of a phrase for every person to use. More on forgiveness, more on other tools that you think have been life-changing. Little questions, insights that you think have had the deepest effect, the most lasting legacy, impact on those that you have worked with and spoken with?
Marshall Goldsmith:
I would say the whole concept of. There’s a book called The Heart of Business by Hubert Joly. Now, Hubert who saved Best Buy did one of the great turnarounds in history, and Best Buy was going bankrupt, just a fantastic job. Hubert just gets up in front of everybody, talks about what he wants to improve follows up on a regular basis, and really, he’s a guy that went through a really positive transformation. None of this is a secret. It’s published all in his book. He talks about having a coach, getting feedback, and he would say, just acceptance of being human. And you don’t have to put on a show all the time and pretend to be perfect just because you’re a CEO.
He stands up and says, “Look, I’m the CEO of this company, but I need you more than you need me. Please help me.” People don’t feel less about him. They feel more positive.
Also, lead by example. Another great guy I’ve coached is David Chang. Do you know who David is? The famous chef. I’m his coach. And one thing I always try to work with him on is being happier.
I said, finally said one thing that really was a breakthrough. That was this. I said, “You want your kids to be happy?”
He loves his kids wants your kid to be happy. “I love my kids. Yes. More than anything in the world, I want my kids to be happy,” he said.
“You believe in leadership by example?” I said.
“Yes.”
I said, “Fine.”
Greg McKeown:
Show them.
Marshall Goldsmith:
“Leadership by example; you be happy.” And, you know, that was for him. Boom. That was one that just really hit.
Let me give you one other thing that’s really good for our listeners, the people listening to us right now. In my book The Earned Life, I talk about three dimensions: aspiration, which is a higher purpose. Why am I doing this? And it’s not a set goal. Then we have our ambitions, which are achievements. What am I achieving? And then we have our day to day actions.
Historically, some people, a few are lost up in the high levels or talking about life and meaningful things, but they don’t do anything, just lots of talk; they’re lost in aspiration.
The listeners of this podcast are not those people. Other people are lost in day-to-day activities. They play video games, whatever. The Listeners podcast are not those people. The people listening to us right now, they’re lost in achievement. And the one lesson I think is very important for the people listening to us right now is very simple. Happiness and achievement are independent variables. The great western myth is I will be happy when followed by, I get this, I do that, I make this money, I achieve this. The other, sell so many books, some nonsense, I’ll be happy to win. There is no when.
The Buddhist term for this is called the hungry ghost; you’re always eating, but you’re never full well. Happiness and achievement are independent variables. Safi Bahcall is a great author. He wrote a book called Loonshots. And over Covid, my friend Mark Thompson and I spent 600 hours with 60 remarkable people in various groups and they talked about life week after week. Well, Safi said, “I finally realized happiness and achievement are independent variables.”
I said, “Safi, I’m glad you realize this. You already have a PhD in physics from Stanford. You’ve written a New York Times bestselling book called Loonshots. You’ve started four businesses, you’ve made zillions of dollars, and you’ve consulted the presidents. If that is not enough achievement to make you happy, do you really think a little bit more is going to get it over the line? Do you really think a little more achievement is going to matter?”
He said, “You’re right, it won’t.”
Greg McKeown:
I was speaking with the biographer…
Marshall Goldsmith:
People listening to us right now are achievers. They’re achievers. And the problem achievers have is delayed gratification. Work out more, do this do that, be more effective. Not really.
Greg McKeown:
I was speaking with the biographer for Michael Phelps and she was sharing how the idea that if in Beijing in 2008, Phelps had won seven gold medals, he’d have been like the second man on the moon. But getting eight gold medals is like being the first man on Mars.
Marshall Goldsmith:
Right.
Greg McKeown:
As the Olympics have just ended, it’s known that after the Olympics, everybody’s depressed. If you win, then you can’t maintain the high. If you didn’t win, then of course you’ve got all of that disappointment. It’s a known phenomenon. And with Phelps, when he won those eight gold medals, it was the worst thing that could have happened to him. That’s the biographer’s point of view. Literally the worst thing because suddenly, the whole world wanted him to be the spokesman of mankind. And he’s like, he’s not prepared for that. That’s not who he is. It was this inspirational moment, but somehow, there was this disconnect everywhere he went. He just had this sensation of, I’m just gonna let everyone down all the time because they need me to be something I’m not.
Which comes full circle, really, to, I think, a theme in this whole conversation. Forgive yourself for being human and admit it to people. I think that’s really helpful. You know, if you were coaching Michael, that’s what you’d be saying, wouldn’t it be something like, just tell people, “Hey, listen, I’m not the spokesman of mankind. This is who I am; this is what I do; this is what I struggle with. I’m not here to give you the answers to the purpose of everything.” Get comfortable saying it so that you can relieve that impossible standard he lived under.
Marshall Goldsmith:
I agree with you. He’s a classic case study of if achievement would make you happy, he’d be the most happy person ever lived. By the way, Sarah Hirschland is head of the US Olympic Committee. She was in our group of 60 over time. I talked a lot with her, and Curtis Martin was in the group. Curtis, as a former National Football League Hall of Fame guy, if you ever had a chance to have him on your call, you should have him. He is an amazing human being. He coaches ex-athletes because they have so much depression and anxiety; ex-NFL stars, terrible.
Greg McKeown:
So many problems.
Marshall Goldsmith:
So this year, Curtis gave a talk to the incoming new people in the National Football League. Curtis is a very deep guy. You know what he said? “Think of someone you hate, you want them to have a miserable life, you want them to be miserable for years.” Then he said, “Give them a lot of fame and money when they’re very young and watch what happens.”
That was pretty deep.
Greg McKeown:
It is deep because of the serious lie that we’re told. This idea that if I were rich and famous, particularly now, my whole lifetime, it’s been part of the culture. Oh, if you just achieve these things, the rise of achievement and the fall of everything else, there’s definitely a theme around that. I think it’s become noticeably more money-centric over the last decade. So much music now is just money. If you have the money, then everything’s great.
Other than so much evidence, properly researched data shows that that’s not the case, including the anecdotes of what we know of people who win the lottery, right? It’s exactly the opposite of what people are being promised.
Let me ask you one final question here. Do you define success in your life or work? And how does that definition influence the choices you’re making about where to invest your time and energy? Now, to me, what do you need to have a great life?
Marshall Goldsmith:
One, take care of your health. We talked about that. That’s not so much what I teach, but that’s an important thing to do.
Two is friends and family. We talked about that, too. Cause that’s really critical.
And three, back to money. You do need enough not to be poor. Poor people are not particularly happy or being extremely poor. But middle, upper, lower, middle classing, you’re fine. And everyone listening to us has enough money right now. Poor people are not listening to this podcast. I know who listens to this stuff. They’re hardworking, dedicated people. Right?
A lot of people have good relationships with people they love, and they’re healthy. Assume you have that. What matters? Three things. One, you need to have some higher purpose in life. Why am I doing this? People work hard. The people listening to us right now typically are very hardworking people. Well, why? Why are you working hard? You need an answer to the question, why am I doing this? What is my higher purpose?
Two, you need to achieve and hopefully achieve in a manner that’s consistent with your higher purpose. You’re not going to stop achieving. What are you going to do? I’m sure you have enough money, so you could retire. So what? I played bad golf with old men at the country club all day. What am I going to do? Why am I talking to you? You know, I couldn’t be playing bad golf with old men at the country club. Instead of talking to you, I’d rather talk to you.
You need to have some achievement aligned with your higher purpose. And you need to enjoy the process of life itself. Assuming that, yeah, I really am engaged in the process of life. I enjoy it. I feel I’m achieving something meaningful to me. I have a higher purpose. You won the game of life.
Greg McKeown:
I love the physicality of that, the applaud that goes with it. I love it.
I resonate with everything you just said. Although it’s not unique to Buddhism, the idea that life is suffering is quite a Buddhist idea. And the longer I live, the more convinced I am that almost everyone is suffering almost all of the time. The question isn’t, will I suffer, or will life have suffering? It’s, how do you respond to the suffering?
So that comes as standard. What do you do with it? It’s not dissimilar to the three reactions you just described a moment ago. You can numb it, react to everything around you, social media out because you just don’t want to face the suffering, or you numb your pain, and any kind of addiction will do, and then you can have the achievement path, which is more goals, more achievement, that you’re putting it off, saying the suffering won’t be there after this. You’re not doing immediate gratification, but you’re pushing out the suffering for a little longer.
And then there’s this idea of higher purpose. I mean, you were saying that in the sense you could get too focused on the philosophy and so on, but now you’re referring to it in just the absolute necessity of it. And I think that idea of a higher purpose, of finding a meaning that justifies your suffering, is really close to the game of life.
Marshall Goldsmith:
I have a different interpretation of Buddhism than you. I mean, you use the word suffering, and that is one interpretation of the word. The original term is ducat. To me I like the term existential dissatisfaction. It’s that basic dissatisfaction with life itself. To me, the cure to existential dissatisfaction is to make peace with what is. Forgive others, forgive yourself, make peace, and learn to find peace and happiness where you are not out there someplace or some other world or money or status. It’s not out there.
Greg McKeown:
What connects all of those together to me is the idea of coming to the truth. It’s just what is not how I wish it was, not what I wish my parents had been, not what I wish I had done, what I wish I was, what I’ve achieved. It is coming to the truth. What is the truth? And facing that truth. Any specific suggestions for coming to peace? You’ve referenced it multiple times as if we know how to do that from those words. But there’s got to be more that you’ve uncovered for yourself and others for that looks like actionably.
Marshall Goldsmith:
And my final thoughts will deal with this great advice for everybody. Very simple exercise. Imagine you’re 95 years old and you’re just getting ready to die. Here comes your last breath. But before you take the last breath, you’re given a great gift. The ability to go back in time and talk to the person that’s listening to me right now. The ability to help that person be a better leader, much more important to have a better life.
Advice with the wise 95 year old you. Who knows what mattered in life and what doesn’t matter? And what was important? What was it? What advice would that old person have for the you that’s listening to me right now? Whatever you’re thinking now, do that. Some friends of mine interviewed old folks who were dying. What advice would you have? Three themes. Theme number one, be happy now. Not next week, not next year, now. Time goes fast. How old are you?
Greg McKeown:
46. Just turned question.
Marshall Goldsmith:
Yeah, 46. I’m almost 30 years older than you. I’m going to help you. Those 30 years go fast. Be happy now, not next week, not till you’re 86.
Number two is friends and family. Never get so busy climbing that ladder of success that you forget the people love you.
And then number three, if you have a dream, go for it because if you don’t go for it when you’re 40, you won’t when you’re 80. Life is short, have fun, enjoy what you’re doing. You seem to enjoy what you’re doing. Nobody’s making you do this.
Number two is do whatever you can do to help people. The main reason to help people has nothing to do with money or status or getting ahead is the old version would be proud of you because you did. You’ll be disappointed if you don’t. And finally go for it; the world’s changing, your life’s changing, you have a higher purpose. Do what you think is right. May not win. At least you tried. As I’ve grown older, my mission life’s getting simpler and simpler. I will share that mission right now. Are you ready? I just hope someone who’s listening to us today has a little better life. If that happens, it’s an incredibly good use of my time.
Greg McKeown:
Well, speaking of that use of your time, Dr. Marshall Goldstein Smith. Thank you for being on the podcast.
For everybody listening. What is one thing that stood out to you? Maybe it’s something that Marshall said, maybe it’s something that wasn’t said. But you heard within you. What’s the news of this episode? And now, what can you do about it immediately, within the next few minutes, a tiny action? To be able to, as Marshall just said so well, just make things in your life a little bit better. Thank you for listening.
