Greg McKeown:
Welcome, everybody. I’m your host, Greg McKeown, and I am here with you on this journey to learn how really, truly how to understand each other. Today I have invited Jack Zenger to the show. Jack has spent, if you can believe it, five decades and then some working as an entrepreneur and also an academician. He’s the CEO and co-founder of Zenger Folkman. He was a faculty member at USC and later taught at Stanford’s Graduate School of Business. But beyond all of this bio, what Jack Zenger is all about is relevant data. So that instead of just saying, well, this is what I think about the world, he actually has captured the data to distinguish between what we think and what is real. Let’s begin
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Jack Zenger, the man, the myth legend. Welcome to the show,
Jack Zenger:
Thank you very much. I’m delighted to be here.
Greg McKeown:
The specific reason that I am so eager to have this conversation today is of one particular piece of research that you did and that you wrote up. And I understand this is from a whole ocean of insight, of wisdom, of research spanning now more than half a century. This almost doesn’t seem right to say that, but this is the piece. This is the piece. It’s the piece called What Great Listeners Actually Do. Can you just talk to me about why you even did that research?
Jack Zenger:
Oh, my. You’re asking me to go back a number of years and the why. I guess I’ve certainly always been fascinated by the topic of listening because it is so basic to everything we do, and I’ve had the feeling that we oversimplified what good listeners do and what you know. And so much of the time, we thought, well, good listening means not talking when the other person is talking and using your facial expressions to let them know that you’re with them and periodically grunting or hmmming. And it felt to me like great listeners did a lot more than that. And so I guess the major thrust behind that article was, what do they really do and what are those higher levels of listening that make such a difference? We’ve both met in our careers people who are really good at that, and what a difference it makes in the conversations that you have and how superficial conversations can be if the other person really doesn’t listen at a deeper level.
So, I think it was maybe an attempt to put on paper this notion that there’s more to good listening than just being quiet. And the metaphor of the trampoline, which I think maybe you probably saw as you read that article. The notion of the trampoline occurred to me as I was watching some of my grandkids outside playing, and I thought, that’s really what good listeners do. Good listeners don’t just absorb energy; they magnify it. They elevate it. They enrich it by the questions they ask and by the attention that they’re paying to this person who’s trying to communicate an important idea we’re feeling.
Greg McKeown:
I love it. I love the reason that you did it, and I love what you just shared about the difference between what people normally say when they discuss listening and then what actually distinguishes great listeners from those other more vanilla, more mundane, basic connotations of what listening is. It’s my observation, just to begin with, that there is a fundamental problem with trying to teach highly effective listening skills to people, and it’s that they think, I’ve already got that. You know, I’m above average at that. Other people could do with this. I’d love for everyone else to be great at this, but I think I’ve got that. I’ll move on to other things. But the way you describe it, it separates the wheat from the tares in this regard. What are your thoughts about that?
Jack Zenger:
No, yeah, I think that’s right. I think listening skills is a little bit like the proverbial, if you ask people if they have good common sense, they always have very good common sense. If you ask if they’re a good driver, they always think they’re a good driver, right? And I think when it comes to listening, am I a good listener? Oh, yes. Why? Of course, I don’t talk when you’re talking, but the idea of
Greg McKeown:
I don’t talk while you are talking.
Oh, it’s so simple what the point is you’re making about that. But it’s so painful, too, when people think that’s what it is for a start. Of course, they think they’ve got it, and of course, to be frank, they won’t like doing it because that’s pretty dull, just not talking while other people are talking. But it’s so much richer than that.
Jack Zenger:
No, you’re absolutely right. And so I think the challenge of being a good listener certainly goes well beyond me being able to repeat back to you word for word what you just said. It really goes beyond me now understanding what was the message that you really were trying to convey? Can I understand the bedrock message that you had in your mind? And then do I also pick up all the cues from your facial expression, from your body language? Do I understand how you feel about it? So not only is it do I understand the content, but do I understand the emotion that you have about this topic? Can I help you not only understand that I understand that emotion, but then can I help you enrich it or make it more relevant or make it accomplish what you’re wanting to accomplish with that message to me?
So it just goes to a whole different level, I think, when you take the energy to really listen at multiple levels and really try to help not only understand the content but the feelings and the assumptions that exist in your mind about the content that you’re presenting. And if I can help you understand those assumptions, then I’ve really made a contribution to you. I’ve helped you process these ideas in a more effective way.
Greg McKeown:
So much of what you said caught my attention. Among them is this phrasing, if I remember it right, the energy to listen and understand on multiple levels. That really resonates with me because I remember reading research that explained that we can process much faster than people can speak. And so that’s a problem because if your mental model of listening is being silent while other people speak, then it will be an extremely unsatisfying, frustrating experience. Because your mind is already operating, it’s got like 40 to 60% of its capacity, just it has to do something that’s just a terrible experience. Nobody wants to do more of that. But if your concept is, as you describe it, this energy to understand the multiple levels, the extraordinary complexity, the delightful richness that exists within all of the context and sub-context of what the person’s saying and why it matters and so on, it is extremely engaging, an extremely fruitful activity.
Jack Zenger:
No, I think you’ve got it exactly right. You’ve got the main concepts that we were trying to convey in that piece we wrote for Harvard, and I am delighted to tell you it has garnered a good deal of attention. People like yourself have found it to be helpful because it’s simple because it does expand what’s otherwise sometimes a not-so-exciting experience that we have in listening to somebody else. We can make it tedious and innovating rather than exciting and exhilarating, and fun. And I think if you’re a person that wants to make every conversation as collaborative and as elevating as possible, then I think listening becomes something far more.
And one of the things I think we talked about in the article too was that good listeners aren’t quiet. They make suggestions, they ask good questions, they make observations that help the person get more clarity. It can tax more of your brain if you’re making something out of that conversation rather than just having it be a passive experience where you’re being a sponge.
Greg McKeown:
First of all, I just, again, love the description there and the interruption. The idea that there is a form of listening that requires interrupting the person in service of understanding them and building on what’s being said is perfectly right, even if it’s a bit counterintuitive.
Once you get beyond this extremely shallow view of what listening is and what it’s capable of being, my own experience with this is that it is the most cognitively complex, highly intelligent form of interpersonal experience that exists. So it couldn’t be more different than this dismissive view, maybe not dismissive, but this surface view that we have often had explained.
Can you go back for us for a moment to the actual research itself, not just the findings of it, but just for those that aren’t familiar with the research that you did. You analyzed data from 3,492 participants. Tell us more about what the process was that you went through in coming to your findings.
Jack Zenger:
So one of the real treasures we have is that we have 360-degree feedback data on over 150,000 listeners worldwide. They have been assessed by some, on average, 14 or 15 of their colleagues. So we have a million and a half 360-degree feedback instruments at which we can then look and do analysis. And so we found among that group of that one database of 3,500, we were able to identify those who were perceived by their colleagues as being particularly effective listeners. And then we were able to kind of look at the data and say, and what other behaviors can we pick up from all the other, what the respondents were saying about them. What clues can we get about what they do differently than the ones who were perceived as being just average or the poor ones? And so it was the ability to look at 360-degree feedback data in a large database that led us to be able to kind of look at it more objectively. So what other behaviors did they engage in that would lead you to understand why they were perceived as being so effective? Once having that data, then you can begin to look at some other dimensions.
One of the things, for instance, that we discovered is that as people move up the hierarchy in organizations, their preference for being really good listeners versus being just effective presenters or preferring to talk rather than to listen, that goes up. That the higher you move up the hierarchy, the more likely it is that a person prefers listening over just blurting out and talking. And so you can see that that increases with the level in the organization, maturity in age, and certainly the overall assessment of leaders, those who preferred to listen were rated much more highly by their colleagues than those who preferred to always be talking.
Greg McKeown:
Okay. So that’s so many things that you just described there, but one that makes me curious – Is it your view that because they become great at listening, they go up in the organization? Or is it the other way around that as they go up in the organization, the pressure on them means that they almost out of necessity say, okay, I just have to start listening because there’s so much coming at me now. What’s the relationship there?
Jack Zenger:
I think the honest answer to your good question is a resounding, I don’t know. I think both probably have some truth in them. I think as people move up the ladder, they recognize that in order to make good decisions, you need to understand more of the facts and more of the information. And that can only come by your willingness to ask good questions, to take the time to hear other people’s perceptions and ideas.
I think there’s also no question that because leaders who listen are perceived more favorably, that may indeed be part of the reason why they got promoted. It was that they were the kind of people who were intellectually curious and didn’t feel the need to always be on stage but who had the discipline to really pause and reflect and ask questions and process that. And one of the things that we talked about in the article just fleetingly, it was the idea that asking for feedback from your colleagues is a very useful trait. And so not only are you listening to ideas that are suddenly thrown in your direction, but you deliberately seek for information that may not always be comfortable for you, but that probably is beneficial for you. And so their willingness to deliberately elicit that kind of data is an important dimension of ultimately what good listeners do.
Greg McKeown:
That reminds me of research that’s just vaguely in my mind that if you ask for feedback, people’s feedback improves. So if you’re at a restaurant and you are eating food, and you’re saying, oh, this is pretty good, and then the maître d’ comes around, or a manager comes around, oh, how is your meal? How are things going? Oh yes, great, thank you. There’s something in the act of being asked for feedback that improves the positivity of the experience somehow.
There was something else that you found that I thought was counterintuitive, and that was that the best listeners were better at including interactions that made people feel great, that created a positive experience for the other party. So whereas in the caricature of listening, it’s about being silent. What actually made a difference was giving a compliment, saying something positive, saying something encouraging. That translated for people who were rating the leader to that behavior looked like great listening from the person who was doing the rating.
Jack Zenger:
Absolutely. I think the clear finding was that the best listeners work to make the conversation a positive, uplifting conversation. Now, we could both theorize about what effect does that have. I think it tends to create a safe environment where people then feel much freer to communicate things that may be difficult, maybe problematic, maybe they’re still puzzled over. So, I think it not only frees them up to be more disclosing, but it also then gives them that sense of safety that they can talk about anything with you.
One of the things we know is that emotions are very contagious, and so to the degree that the listener can do things, say things that make this a positive conversation, you just know that you’re going to then have more positive conversations and you’re going to help them to have this be a productive experience.
Greg McKeown:
That idea of emotions being contagious has at least one direct question back to you and back to this research, which is, Did you find in this research or in any other research that there was a relationship between being a great listener to other people and then other people returning the favor to you?
Jack Zenger:
You know, the nature of our research probably hasn’t been designed to honestly fully answer that question. I’ve got behind your opinion, but to tell you that it’s really based on data would not be accurate. The research we do doesn’t really close that loop.
Greg McKeown:
What’s your hunch on it?
Jack Zenger:
My hunch is that it does that, absolutely. The process of listening makes it more likely that people will reciprocate.
Greg McKeown:
In this ask for Harvard Business Review, you describe no less than six levels of listening, which at first seems like quite a lot of levels. So level one is the listener creates a safe environment in which difficult, complex, or emotional issues can be discussed. Is that like the lowest level?
Jack Zenger:
The intent was to say, at the most basic level, if people are going to have a truly productive conversation, they have to feel safe. And you may have seen this recent research that Google did. Trying to figure out what makes the most effective Google employees. Was it that, you know, at higher IQ scores did they came out of better universities and institutions? And what made the most effective teams, particularly in Google? And they found out that it was no bullying. People listened to each other. They were cooperative. They were collaborative. There was empathy. They respected each other’s opinions. So I think it has to begin with a feeling of safety.
Greg McKeown:
And I should just interrupt just to make this point that we just covered this research. For those that are listening, episode 140. It’s called One Phrase for Achieving Psychological Safety, which I go into some detail about this Google research that’s just been described. Please continue here. So you’re saying level one has to have some psychological safety, and that’s level one, everybody. Okay, so level two.
Jack Zenger:
Level two is that it’s so easy because the human mind processes data faster than most people speak it. It’s very easy to leave your laptop open. And so, while someone comes into your office and wants to talk about some big issue, it’s easy for you to glance over and look at your laptop and see what’s happening or to be distracted by lots of things around.
Level two was the really effective listener closes the laptop, positions themself in their chair in such a way that they’re facing the person with whom they’re talking, and clearly signals they’re present. There’s no distraction. I’m here. I’m with you. I’m devoting my 100% attention to this conversation.
Greg McKeown:
You have my full attention.
Jack Zenger:
You have my full attention.
Greg McKeown:
Level three, then.
Jack Zenger:
And level three was that, yes, it is important to be able to understand the content of what the other person is saying, understanding what their ideas were. That’s very fundamental. If I’m not understanding your terminology or the content, then I’m not really being a very good listener. But it doesn’t stop there.
Greg McKeown:
Level four.
Jack Zenger:
And level four is that the most effective listeners need to go beyond. So what’s the content, and what are the emotions that are wrapped around this? And clearly, in some conversations, you can tell when someone is really angry, or they’re agitated, or they’re extremely worried. But sometimes, these are more subtle, and they’re more nuanced. And so you have to listen very carefully. And here’s a case where not only are you listening with your ears, but you’re listening with your eyes.
I see the expression on your face. I see your blotchy red spots on your neck. I see you wiggling, and you can pick up lots of signals. And you, I’m sure, have heard these estimates that 80% of communication, 80% of what we communicate, is nonverbal. I don’t know what that right number is, but there’s no question that if I’m sitting with you face to face and I’m paying attention really carefully to your body language, your expressions, I can begin to understand your feeling about this subject. And in many cases, it’s really important for me, as a boss or as a subordinate or as a colleague or friend, to not only understand the content but to understand your emotion about it.
Greg McKeown:
Something about this level four listening that’s impactful to me is that when I am in tune, really watching, I can notice sometimes micro-adjustments in someone’s physiology. An awkward movement at a certain point while they’re talking or the way they say something that just the tone that I don’t know what it means, but I have with a high level of probability that it means something and maybe something important. And so then you can bring attention to that as gently as you can. But okay, I noticed that the way you said that was interesting, or maybe there’s something more there, or someone will turn the conversation abruptly, slightly abruptly. They were going down one message, and then they moved over. And sometimes, by paying attention, I’m able to say, well, let’s just go back to something. It seems like there was something else you were saying that had some energy to it, and these are all things that, well, what I want to say is I’m really rubbish at doing it plenty of times, but when I’m doing it, it’s extremely rewarding, and people start to open up to the more vulnerable subjects and to the more essential content as well.
Your thoughts.
Jack Zenger:
Yeah. And that’s then the natural segue to the fifth level, which was that very often, it’s helpful for those emotions to be just sort of acknowledged. And for the good listener to say, I can tell you feel very deeply about this question or that as we’ve talked about this, it’s clear that you’re pretty agitated about this. And I think you can do a lot to help the person see a little more internally and for themselves what their emotions are and how they are being transmitted to the people around them. So recognizing those emotions can be a very valuable kind of step. Not always, every conversation you have with your partner or your wife, you know, does not need to have this level of analysis or interpretation. But there are times when it helps a lot. When you say to your partner or your spouse, I can tell that you’re really upset about this. And just acknowledging that goes a long way to helping them to, you know, understand that you understand and helping to make the conversation proceed more effectively.
Greg McKeown:
I often say this at the end of the podcast, but today it has particular meaning. Thank you. Really, thank you for listening.
What is one idea you heard today from Jack Zenger that caught your attention? Why does this matter to you right now? And what is one person you can share that insight with in the next 24 to 48 hours?
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