Greg McKeown:
Welcome. I’m your host, Greg McKeown, coming to you from Cambridge, England. I am the author of two New York Times bestsellers, Effortless and Essentialism. And I’m here with you on this journey to learn how we can operate at our highest point of contribution.
Have you ever felt unsafe to share what you really think? Have you ever felt disoriented, lost, or muddled as a result of that? For some people, founders, professionals, executives, entrepreneurs, this problem grows as we advance in our careers. As our responsibilities increase, the number of people we can speak to openly decrease. What would happen if you could hard-wire a solution to this problem into your routine?
Today, I’ve invited Bill George to the show to coach us to this better solution. Bill is a businessman and an academic. He’s the professor of management practice at the Harvard Business School. He previously served as chairman and also as CEO at Medtronic. He’s the author of a new book, True North Emerging Leader. But as you’ll hear, we took a deep dive into a practice Bill has had in place for 50 years. By the end of this episode, you will have a specific solution that Bill has used for 50 years in order to create space to be heard, to be understood as you move up the ladder of success. Let’s begin.
If you want to learn faster, understand more deeply, increase your influence, share one idea from this podcast to someone else within the next 24 to 48 hours.
Bill George, the great Bill George, the Peter Drucker of our times, the tremendous influencer of influencers. Welcome to the podcast.
Bill George:
Greg. Thanks so much for having me on. I’m actually out here outside the outskirts of Paris and a chateau doing a seminar for a large insurance company, but it’s a privilege to be here. I don’t think I deserve that introduction, but I’m excited to talk to you.
Greg McKeown:
Well, well, you see anyone who can begin the sentence “Yes from the chateau on the outskirts of Paris.” I mean, that, that’s somebody worth listening to. And I don’t know if you remember this, but the last time we were together was at the Kennedy School at Harvard. We are just dropping all the names here, as part of the YGL group in which both you and, of course, your book were central to the development of those leaders and their impact around the world. So it’s awfully fun to have an excuse to continue the conversation with you today.
Bill George:
Greg. Let me just say, of all the programs I’ve taught in the last 20 years since I left Medtronic, I think that was my favorite working with The Young Global Leaders. It was great fun. So thank you.
Greg McKeown:
Well, and they’re such a tremendous set of leaders themselves. And I always feel when I’m with The Young Global Leaders, just free somehow to be myself, but also to dream and to imagine what is possible and how one can make a higher contribution in the world. And that puts us firmly in a spot for this conversation because you have recently said, I thought a little boldly, that not just that there are five principles of leadership, characteristics of leadership that we ought to aspire to as emerging leaders now, but that Mark Zuckerberg is struggling, maybe even failing on three of them. Can you just launch us into that perspective that you have?
Bill George:
Well, Greg, I believe strongly; first of all, you said we would li live in a world where we can all be ourselves. I think that should be the world for all of us. And the challenge we all face, I certainly did, is trying to lead before we know how to lead ourselves. And it’s hard work of knowing who we are. I think we have to delve deeply into our life stories. What are the people and experiences of influences? What are the difficult time, to which I call crucibles, and gain self-awareness before we can go out and try to lead others? And I think Mark’s challenge is that he got thrown into a world at 19 years old where he grew up this amazing social media site; never been anything like it, 2 billion followers, but he never had a chance to solidify around his own mission and values, his sense of purpose.
And so it kind of morphed over time into how many followers do I have? And it’s very easy to get caught up, Greg, in what I call the adulation trap, where you start measuring yourself by your title. You’re the CEO, or you have 2.2 million followers, or your stock is worth x, or your net worth is y, or the media loves to fawn over you. This is really dangerous, I think, for all of us, and we can all fall into that trap if we’re not careful. And I think Mark did that. And then he turned inward, pushed out Sheryl Sandberg, who had been his partner, kind of pushed out some of the board members who, like Don Graham of the Washington Post who had been helping him, or maybe Don retired. But he didn’t really have those close colleagues around him to advise him. He came a bit of a loner. And I think those are real danger signals for leaders. And he’s not the only one, but I worry about him in that regard.
Greg McKeown:
Well, one of the things you’re doing when you make this observation is you’re making the research and the findings in your new book highly relevant right now. We’re all witness to this shift from Facebook to Metaverse. You know, that’s in the news almost every day in some regard. Of course, right now, at the time of this conversation, that shift, that experiment does not seem to be going well. And you are making the connection, if I understand right, that, that really you are placing the responsibility with Mark and with, what I think you are saying, some undeveloped leadership abilities that are being shown through the crucible of this massively challenging time. Am I getting that right? Where am I getting it wrong?
Bill George:
You’re very perceptive. You got it exactly right. We all have to go through that self element, and Mark said the other day to Joe Rogan, “You know, I wake up every morning, and I don’t want to look at my emails because it feels like getting punched in the gut.” And then he said he gave up running because he thinks too much. This does not sound like a happy person to me. And so sometimes you recommend to people take a little time off and kind to reflect. And I think that’s healthy for all of us. Oftentimes it happens mid-career, late thirties, or early forties, but we often have to go through that process to get really grounded, Greg, like you said, with the YGLers, you can be who you are. Isn’t that what we all want? But sometimes you get so caught up in being a public figure that you lose sight of who the real you is.
Greg McKeown:
Well, this idea that’s at the heart of your approach to leadership development that you can’t lead others effectively until you lead yourself. This self-leadership orientation, the inside-out approach, of course, I think is fascinating. Can you walk us through the five areas that you think are so important and then just check against them, the three you are thinking Mark is struggling in right now?
Bill George:
Well, I started by saying that you have to delve deeply and process your life story and then process your crucible, which is the most difficult thing to do. Most of us want to talk about the good things we’ve done, the good times, and we don’t want to be open. And you never understand yourself till you hear yourself telling your story to someone else. But I think it’s really processing that and not just saying, Oh, I wish I hadn’t had those bad experiences, or, I’m unfortunate, but really looking at saying, what’s the pearl in there for me? But that leads to self-awareness. And I think that is the key to which you’re referring, is that we have to know who we are through self-awareness. And I think that comes from reflection, such as I meditate every day could come. And it also comes from having people around you, truth-tellers, if you want to call ’em that, who give you honest feedback that leads then to getting solidified in your values, knowing who you are from the standpoint, these are my values, these things, principles and that I’ll stand behind no matter what.
And then I think the next thing you have to do, it took me a while to do this, to be honest, Greg, is to find your sweet spot. Your sweet spot’s a place where you have a role that’s playing to your strengths, and you’re highly motivated by it. And those two characteristics come together in what we call your sweet spot. And then, beyond that, I think you need a support team. That’s why I said Mark’s becoming a loner. I think we’re all at risk of that if we kind of pull inside ourselves and don’t have people around us. Mine starts with my wife, Penny, who’s been my greatest supporter for 53 years. But having someone who can tell you when you’re going off track and when you get down, pick you up, and give you support. I have a men’s group that I meet with every Wednesday morning, seven 15 to eight 30. Won’t believe this, but we were in meetings since 1975.
Greg McKeown:
Wow.
Bill George:
Yeah. And a couple of the people have passed away. But it’s an invaluable group that talk about the really important issues in life. And then…
Greg McKeown:
I don’t want to interrupt the flow of this, but I don’t want to miss this. How did you stop that group?
Bill George:
Well, I did it with a colleague. We’d gone to a series of seminars, and we came out of that and said, you know, let’s keep this discussion going, and let’s try meeting every week to have someone we can talk to. Because I think leadership, particularly at the top, is very lonely. . . And sometimes, there are things you can’t say to your board. You can’t say to your executives that you really need to talk through with someone. And that’s why it’s good to have that support group in place. So we decided to get together and talk about important issues in life. Like now, we’re talking about issues of courage. We’re talking about issues of legacy. We’re talking about issues continuing to talk about self-awareness. We’re talking about issues of long-term health. And these issues become very important to us.
The final thing I would add on to that is having an integrated life. You know, I hear, I used to hear students say, you know, MBA students, I work a hundred hours a week before I came here to school, school. This is crazy. You know, you want to have a life where you have, you’re not just all work, but you have a home life, family life if you will, a personal life. And then you’re engaged in a community. And I think those four things, your work, your home, your personal life and your, your family, if you will, family and friends, I would add, and your community is really essential, and you’ll be a much better leader when you look at that, and you’re healthy in all those areas, not just focusing entirely on your work. I think that’s where you get to the point where you try to do it all yourself. You pull back; you’re not delegating.
So in any kinda leadership role, I think you need to be that integrated leader who can show up as the same person no matter what environment you’re in. I used to coach soccer for 12 years with a group of, you know, 10, 12, 14-year-old boys. I did that for 12 years as they grew up. It was a wonderful experience. These are middle-class kids going through difficult times, and what a great experience. That was very different than being head of Medtronic, I can assure you. So, but it was a great counterpoint.
Greg McKeown:
Okay. There’s two points in my mind. The first is that I was just speaking to somebody who was reflecting on their parent, who has been extremely successful in a professional environment and respected in that role. And they basically subscribed to this idea early on in life that life was a portfolio to be managed. And so it was okay to be out of balance for 10 years, 20 years as long as you maintain balance over the totality of your life. Now, that sounds good, but what they were sharing with me was that, really, that’s not what’s happened.
Bill George:
Huh. Okay.
Greg McKeown:
And that their parent would admit that that’s not what’s happened. That in the end, the unintended consequence of being so consumed in one area of life for 20 years, 30 years, and so on is that really the other areas just didn’t get enough nurturing, enough oxygen, enough, you know, food, whatever the metaphor is. And so, that’s sort of one of my thoughts as you talk about the integrated life, is to be aware of the portfolio approach. Oh, well, I’ll get to that in the next season and to make sure that we are integrated all the way along. Go ahead.
Bill George:
It doesn’t work. You’re, you’re absolutely right. I’m glad this person said that. I was afraid they were going the other way. It honestly does not work. You, I mentioned my wife of 53 years.
Greg McKeown:
Congratulations.
Bill George:
You continually renew our marriage. You know, I mean, we have to continually talk about, and where we’re going, what we’re doing is you go through different stages in life. If you don’t renew your friendships, they won’t be there. And who’s going to be there for you? Say if you lose your job or if, if you have cancer, you know, all those people that thought you were pretty special when you had a big important public role, they kind of disappear if you lose your job. . . So who can you count on to be there for you? So if you don’t nurture those things all along if you don’t build your relationship with your own children, they grow up, and then you say, at 16, Oh, son, I’d like to get together, Dad, I’m busy. You know? And so, you know, you need to nurture those relationships at all.
But also, and I would emphasize this, the one area that gets the most neglected is your personal development. And that’s why I say I meditate. Look, you can do whatever you want, but everyone on this call needs to take at least 20 minutes a day, set aside all the electronics, put the phones away and everything, and just reflect. Maybe you go for a jog, a long walk, maybe you have a prayer session, maybe mindfulness, maybe just sit in a beautiful garden, or you meditate like I do. And not scripting what it should be. But it’s, it’s what Doug Simon calls the pause principle. You have to take that pause and reflect; how did I show up today? Was it a good day? Was I true to my values? Was I empathetic and compassionate of the people I work with? Was I too driven? All those characteristics, and did I feel fulfilled? Did I feel like I was doing the kind of things I love doing? And so I think everyone needs to do that every day.
Greg McKeown:
Bill, what’s striking to me about what you just said is that I just, again, had this experience. I was working with a group of seasoned executives, 150 from a hundred different companies, and I asked by a show of hands who today had taken 10 minutes to just plan their day to sit down and say, Okay, here’s what’s important to me. Here’s what would be meaningful to achieve and to put it in priority order. You know, like, not rocket science, not one hand.
Bill George:
Wow.
Greg McKeown:
And what’s amazing to me about that bill is that, well, I mean, it’s striking on, it’s on the face of it, but I have asked that question now, all over, over the last, let’s say six months, all over the world, different industries, different countries, different levels of seniority, and I get almost exactly the same answer. You might, out of a group of 200, get maybe five hands that will say yes. And, and I actually, I feel a little, a little ridiculous about what I’m sharing because, you know, this is sort of in my wheelhouse to be in this subject matter. But I did not understand that it was that low. I know people live out of their inboxes, but I thought they were more people who were doing both. And what I’m finding is that actually, like, at least these leaders, they’re not doing it almost at all.
Bill George:
So, Greg, this is like, you’re going into, I used to play tennis in high school and college, you know, I’m going into a big match, and I don’t get mentally prepared for the match. I just kind of walk into the match and don’t know anything. My opponent, and here I am, I haven’t warmed up or anything, or I’m going into a board meeting at Medtronic or, you know, whatever the circumstances going into a team game in soccer, were not sitting in a locker room talking about the game in advance. It’s not right. And you’re not going to do well either. So I think we all need that kind of preparation, that it’s mental preparation. As someone said to me before I go into every class, Greg, I try to get centered on what do I want to accomplish in a class? How do I want to relate? I’ve got 90 students here. How do I want to relate to them? You know, and who is feeling neglected or who have I not, You know, and just get really prepared and spend…
Greg McKeown:
Intention to live that class or that meeting or that conversation or that day with intention versus just reacting to it.
Bill George:
And can I set everything else aside and just be present? That’s the key thing in the classroom. I’m there to learn. I learn more from people like you. Every class I go into or coming into this session with you on this, on your show, I learn more from you than you’re ever going to learn from me. Just what you just taught me about people not doing this. So this is really helpful.
Greg McKeown:
I want to come back to this group that you’ve been meeting with since, did you say 1975?
Bill George:
Mm-hmm.
Greg McKeown:
So how many people are in the group?
Bill George:
Well, there are now six. Two of the people passed away, one last summer, quite tragic. Now, it was very sad, let’s put it that way.
Greg McKeown:
I’m sorry.
Bill George:
About five years ago. So we are down to six, but six is a good, healthy number. That’s the number I would recommend is the ideal number, even though we have people who are maybe, you know, out of town or ill from time to time.
Greg McKeown:
So talk to me about, I mean, you say every week, what percentage of the time have you actually met over that? Well, let’s do the math. That’s almost 50 years. Is it 90% of the time? Is it 99% of the time? How regularly have you met over that?
Bill George:
Well, let’s say that we take every Christmas or holiday week off. Okay, maybe that’s two weeks. So let’s say 50 weeks a year. I’d say we meet 49 weeks out of the 50 that are relevant that we plan to meet.
Greg McKeown:
As soon as you are answering with, Well, we take Christmas off, right? You’ve already given the answer, right? So you’re not wondering, will I do this this week? There’s no question. It is built in, baked into the routine. And in this sense, in that sense, at least sort of effortless because you’re not having to coordinate schedules. It’s already done. Now, in the meeting itself, is there an agenda? Do you follow a structure?
Bill George:
Yes. The structure is we spend 15 or 20 minutes checking in. One of our people has had some health problems, so we’re checking in, seeing how he is doing this week. And then you get a program. So you have a program for two weeks, okay? And then you present your, you engage the group in discussion.
For instance, one of my colleagues this past week, his question was, how do we feel about essential workers, and what are we doing to take care of people on the front lines? And is it just as a post covid thing, and what are, why are people so turned off? And then, how do we relate? How much time am I spending with people? How am I treating people on the front lines, whether it’s a barista at Starbucks, or a stock person at Target, or a nurse administrator in the hospital? How am I relating to the people I encounter in my everyday life? And I don’t mean the bosses; I mean everyone I encounter. And how much time am I spending there, you know? Am I really caring for people and appreciating the work they’re doing? Because as a nation, a number of us feel, I feel strongly, we’ve gotten away from that. We’ve created a hierarchical system, and you know, some people are quote more important than others. And we learned during covid that wasn’t true.
Greg McKeown:
And so when you say they do a presentation on this, are they assigned that the week before? Just one person. Okay, you’re going to do a presentation. Do you know what the subject is? Or they just arrive, and they’ve got some questions and things they want to lead a conversation about?
Bill George:
Normally you put out something a day or two in advance and say, Here’s our topic.
Greg McKeown:
Do you rotate? Do you rotate through?
Bill George:
Yeah, we rotate to the group. Yeah. And you know, you’ve got two weeks. You know your schedule in advance, you know what weeks you have, and if you, for some reason, have to swap with somebody, that’s okay, and you do it. But normally, you put out on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and say, Here’s what we’re going to be just talking about. So you can hear a couple of questions, Greg, that I think we should all reflect on and talk about. So it’s not a prepared thing, but it’s pretty informal after that.
Greg McKeown:
But nevertheless, there’s, there’s someone assigned to it, and they send something ahead so that people know what to expect. When are you next teaching that segment?
Bill George:
I think October. If I have the Wednesdays right, the 24th. So I’m coming up next week, I think.
Greg McKeown:
And are you assigned any subject, or you just have to…
Bill George:
No, no, I’m not assigned. I have to come up with a sub. Yes. It can be all over the map, you know?
Greg McKeown:
Yes. And then, so that’s 20 minutes. Is that the remainder? Is that
Bill George:
No, 20 minutes is the check. I would call the check-in period.
Greg McKeown:
Check-in.
Bill George:
Check-in, meaning you want to know how everyone’s doing, you know?
Greg McKeown:
Check-in, followed by a segment led by one of them.
Bill George:
Say the next 55 minutes.
Greg McKeown:
Yeah, you’re 55 minutes on that. I see. So overall, this is, you know, approximately an hour and 15, and the discussion is then led. Are there any rules of communication that you have either established up front or that you’ve learned by experience for that conversation?
Bill George:
Just be honest, be candid, and, you know, express support for what other people are feeling and what they’re expressing. If there are things that are not said, encourage them to say ’em. And that’s maybe more important because maybe there may be some pain behind a particular something that someone says. And so, you try to encourage each other. Greg, can you say more about that and tell me more? I, I sense this is quite painful to you, or something happened there. I didn’t get the whole picture. Could you just elaborate on it?
Greg McKeown:
Hmm. You’ve really created a high-trust group of people. Then you’ve established these rules of psychological safety so that people can be honest. They’re being asked to be honest, but it’s more than being asked to be. They actually feel they can be because of these rules and because of the intent of the people in the room.
Bill George:
Right. And you have to create a trust level first. And the way we create a trust level back to the days when new people are coming into the group is that everyone shares their life story and their difficult times with everyone else in the group. And you build through that. See, we don’t connect through our heads. We connect through our hearts. So the discussion shouldn’t be too intellectual. It should be more on the ground, more down to earth, more real.
Greg McKeown:
There are a few people in my life, and it’s not a large number, but there’s a few people who, if I call them up, but they call me up from the first second of the conversation, they will be completely honest with me, and I will be completely honest with them. There’s nothing held back. There’s no sense of pretense. There’s no sense of; well, how will this sound? You just get to be, and they can be, and it has, I think, as the foundation, well, there’s safety, but a sense that they can understand and that you are going to understand, and there’s enough either respect for each other, or there’s enough competence in each other that you can, that you believe the other person is going to understand what you’re saying quickly and not jump in to judge. And it’s a very precious thing. Rare. And you formalized it. That’s what I’ve gained from this. You’re putting those people in the same room so that you can do it all together.
Bill George:
Yeah. And the underlying purpose is who’s going to tell you the truth in your life? Who can you count on when you’re down?
Greg McKeown:
I hope you’ve enjoyed part one of this conversation with Bill George. Here’s an idea worth sharing. If we can’t talk, then we can’t think. And so it is our responsibility to make it safe for other people to speak to us as entrepreneurs, as leaders, but also it’s our responsibility to make it safe to speak to other people in our families, in our friendships, in our business relationships.
If we can’t talk, then we can’t think. Perhaps that’s the one idea you can share with somebody else today. But if it’s not that, what is one thing that did stand out to you that you can share? What is one insight you had in this conversation with Bill George you could share with somebody else?
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Remember to subscribe to the podcast so that you can receive the next episode. They come out on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Until next time, this is Greg McKeown coming to you from Cambridge.
