Greg McKeown:
Welcome everyone. I’m your host, Greg McKeown, and I am here with you on this journey to learn. Learn how to be able to utilize this precious amount of time, this ridiculously short amount of time we have on earth, to live a life that really matters, to connect with the vital few people in our lives so that we don’t get to the end of our lives and we think did I miss it? That’s the test of life, isn’t it? That we can answer clearly, honestly I didn’t miss it. I didn’t miss the people who mattered, and I didn’t miss what mattered to them. I didn’t leave things unsaid, unexpressed. But how easy is it to miss the moment? How easy is it to rush past the people who actually matter to us in a serious way, the thousand X’s, those few people who we would give our lives for, but actually, sometimes we miss entirely?
It is with that feeling in mind, that desire to create a space to be able to have the kind of conversations that can change us, the kind of truthful dialogue that is curative, that I have invited Topaz Adizes, an Emmy award-winning writer, director, a visionary in experience, design, architecture, which is a bit of a mouthful, but really what he is best known for is the last 10 years, making hundreds now I think 1,200 beautiful videos capturing the most exquisite, emotionally resonant, deeply connected conversations between two people who really matter to each other.
So Topaz’s journey is nothing short of remarkable. He has a whole line of prestigious accolades. He’s the Edmund Hillary Fellow, he’s a Sundance Skoll Stories Change Fellow, and his groundbreaking work has been showcased in film festivals the world over, Cannes and Sundance and IDFA and South by Southwest, and so many more. And his work has been featured in the New Yorker magazine and Vanity Fair, and the New York Times, and we could go on and on. He’s the founder and executive director of the Skin Deep. His academic background is in philosophy, at Berkeley and also at Oxford University. He’s a polyglot who speaks four languages. He’s currently residing in Uruguay with his two children and his wife as he continues to push the boundaries of not just digital storytelling, not just experience design, but his own understanding of how to help people understand each other at a deeper level. And I can think of nothing more relevant, nothing more important, and so it’s an absolute pleasure to welcome you, Topaz, to the show.
Topaz Adizes:
Greg, what a beautiful intro. My man, that was incredible. Well, thank you so much, I think, setting up the space about life. I see my life from the end backward. I think that’s a beautiful place to start from. I mean, I think that’s a great motivation.
Greg McKeown:
Thank you for that. And you name here the space. This is a really important idea to you. Can you tell me more about why you care about the space so much?
Topaz Adizes:
Because we do certain things in certain spaces. You don’t cook in the bathroom, and you don’t sleep in the kitchen. We don’t realize the spaces, how much we are affected by the spaces we are in, and one extension of a space or another form of space is the questions we ask ourselves and each other.
Greg McKeown:
What’s the relationship between the questions we ask and the type of space that exists between two people? Help us unpack that because that’s a critical formula.
Topaz Adizes:
Yeah, beautiful. But say that, ask that question again, say that again because there’s a beautiful thread there between the two.
Greg McKeown:
Well, what is that relationship? I mean, we’ve heard, I’m sure, that we’re supposed to ask people questions, and if we’ve spent any time thinking about our questions, then we have learned that some questions are better than other questions. But it’s a nice way of thinking about questions as constructing a certain kind of space between people. So, if I ask a leading, controlling question to my teenager, a certain kind of space exists between us. Attention, very little space, in fact, and it’s all about either wanting to run away or collide.
So you have spent more time than, well, certainly more time than any average person, but I think you would be a complete outlier in how much time you have spent trying to understand the kinds of questions that create a sacred space between,
Topaz Adizes:
So I see, that’s a great question and, yes, the questions can help amplify a space, but before we ask these questions, we do have to create the space separately than the question, and how we do that is by just simply putting out an intention and stating it outright, and what I mean?
Greg McKeown:
Like what?
Topaz Adizes:
Well, just okay, here’s how we here’s a negative way that we create the space right, and it’s a scope of a relationship. Or maybe someone at work says, “Hey, we have to have a talk.”
That instantly creates a space of, okay, we’re going to step into a space where there’s some kind of attention that we haven’t resolved. Yeah, there’s a problem. And instantly, we both know we’re stepping into a space where we’re going to fix, to fix a problem or deal, and it’s going to be uncomfortable. I mean just saying we got to talk. Everybody listening, you and I both are like, okay, tension. So that creates space, right?
If you’re washing the dishes and your wife comes to you, Greg, and says, “Why do you love me?” While you’re washing the dishes, you’re not wondering about the question; you’re wondering about the intention.
Greg McKeown:
Where’s this coming from?
Topaz Adizes:
Therefore, there is no space for you to actually answer it. If you come home and you tell your wife out of the blue, “Darling, you are divine, so I’m so in love with you, and I’m so grateful for everything you’ve done.”
And where is this? And she’s watching TV or something.
Greg McKeown:
She still wants to know the intention. It’s the first thing. I love this.
Topaz Adizes:
So intention. Now, we have to be aware of the intention. When we’re in a kitchen, our intention is to cook or to eat the meal. If we’re in the dining room, next right, If we’re in our bedroom, there’s another intention. If we’re in the restroom, there’s another intention. Therefore, there’s a space of possibilities that happen there. So, in the home of our relationships, are we creating the spaces to have certain kinds of conversations? Often, we’re not right. You go to the gym to exercise. Where do we go to exercise our relationship? And therefore we need to create a space for that.
Greg McKeown:
Where do we go to have meaningful conversations?
Topaz Adizes:
Yes, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be look, you can light candles, and you can play music. Yes. Another great spot is when you’re on a road trip. Why are road trips such great places to have conversations? When you’re in the car, Because there’s nowhere to go, and maybe you can listen to an audiobook or podcast or music for so long, but at some point, it’s going to be wonderful to have a conversation because there’s nowhere to go. You’re both there.
Greg McKeown:
I also think the side-by-side element is a part of that. I know that’s not-.
Topaz Adizes:
You’re talking about the end format, right?
Greg McKeown:
Well, I just mean literally if you’re driving in the car and you are just side-by-side. I think there’s actually something about that that creates safety, particularly with men. I read some research about that this is one of the reasons that if you’re going to have a deep conversation with your dad, with your son, that can be a place to do that,
Topaz Adizes:
Because they’re not looking at each other’s eyes. They’re looking at the target they’re hunting per se. But what I want to say is that, for instance and you said there’s a mouthful experience design architect, and you’re correct, it is, but there’s an architecture In certain homes. An architect will build a place where you know the couple or the family will sit to look at the fire or to watch the sunset, and every evening they will watch the sunset or every evening, they’ll sit by the fire, and certain conversations will be had around the fire that are different than in the car on the ride to school for instance right there’s.
We can create spaces where we have conversations, both in terms of physical space but also in terms of the intention that we articulate to each other, and in that space, then we can create questions that will amplify and deepen the space we’re in.
Greg McKeown:
So yeah, we have to sort of distinguish here because, on the one hand, we’re talking about physical space, and I love all of that, that designful thinking, I mean, all the way to architecture. But that’s probably a bit much for people to try and wrestle off in this conversation, but thinking about where they might have meaningful conversations. But then you said something right at the beginning that in order to create space to connect, you have to express intention. I wonder if you could unpack that for me. Exactly what words could I use to create that intent?
Topaz Adizes:
Well, we sell card games. Super right, we have these boxes of card games. If I come to you and say, “Greg, let’s play this game.” Okay, there’s an invitation to a space right there. It’s a game.
Your next question is like, “Well, how do you play the game?”
“Well, we’re going to ask each other these questions, and you don’t have to answer it, but you have to ask every question.”
We just created the space, right? I? I mean, that is the creation of space. Why do we have and if you look in the offices, why do we have board meeting rooms? That’s a different kind of space because you’ll have different conversations in a board meeting room than in your office per se, right?
Greg McKeown:
I was imagining what you would say is you need to express your intent, like look, I want to share with you how important you are. I want to be able to have a deeper conversation just because I want to deepen our relationship. What you said instead was, look, the card game itself creates enough intent that you can start to have the conversation.
Topaz Adizes:
Exactly. Because part of the challenge, the risk of stating that kind of intention. When I mean intention, it doesn’t have to be articulated per se, but it’s an intention you have to bring into space. If we go there like I want to have this kind of conversation, then you’re already creating it.
It’s a lot of pressure and agenda, right? No, sometimes you need that. It’s a different kind of conversation. That’s why we say we got to talk, because then you’re clearly coming with attention. We have to talk, and we know what kind of conversation. That’s fine, you can have.
Hey, we need to have a maintenance talk, we have a check-in talk. That’s fine, you can state the intention. We don’t say we want to have an exploratory talk. I want to play a game. I want to play the book. There’s a great book out. So what I’m saying is like the intention can be fully stated, bit of an agenda, which is fine because they know where you’re coming from. But the other way is if I play a little soft music as we’re watching the sunset with a glass of wine, I don’t have to state my intention. I’m already stating it by my actions of the space I’m creating.
Greg McKeown:
Okay, I love all of this, and I want to just riff for a second on the game, because this is now the second time, or at least the second time, that I’ve been in a situation with somebody who has literally created a game in order to foster the kinds of conversations that don’t come naturally to humans.
And so I don’t know if you’re familiar with Fair Play, but that’s both a book and a card game, a sort of card game.
So Eve Rodsky got her life before she was an author going working with the difficult transition between high net worth families whose matriarch or patriarch was getting older, and so they need to talk about some sort of transition plan. And, first of all, most of the matriarchs and patriarchs she spoke to in that situation began with, “Well, I’m never going to die, so there’s no point in even having this conversation.”
And that’s amazing to me. That sort of not wanting to face reality or that and respond to and move around helped people to be able to address and express things that they otherwise wouldn’t. So this is the second time that I have been talking to somebody who has, in actual experience, tried to help people to get there below the surface, to the things that really matter, that are by definition more vulnerable, and that they’ve done it by a card game structure. How did you come to the card game as the artifact to enable these kinds of curative conversations?
Topaz Adizes:
Well, we actually started initially just creating the videos, and the market asked for the card games. After two years of putting out these videos of conversations of the end, I’m speaking of, where we invited people into a room facing each other on two chairs very close to each other, with a coffee table no higher than their knee, so it’s not separating them, right.
We’re not sitting between two desks. It’s there; they can feel each other’s bodies at five feet apart, right in the space, and presented them with questions that they would ask each other. And we filmed it with three cameras, and at minimum, you’re one wide shot and two over the shoulders, close-up.
Greg McKeown:
So that you can see each other’s face
Topaz Adizes:
At the same time, at minimal. You’re watching bite panel. We’re not cutting back from one to the other. We’re always in a bite panel. So you see both close, or triptych, where you see the white chart in the middle, but you’re always seeing both faces at the same time, and what that’s doing is illuminating the space between. It’s illuminating their connection. That’s why we call it ‘the and’, because the relationship is you and I, us and them. It’s the and that connects us. So that was the art of it. The intent was let’s illuminate the space between, let’s illuminate the connection between them as they read each other, as they feel off of each other, regardless of what they say.
I have a friend who said there’s reality TV, this, the and, is reality of feeling. And so, as we started that and we saw these incredible conversations happening and maybe not even conversations, feeling. And so, as we started that and we saw these incredible conversations happening, and maybe not even conversations, but exchanges, emotional conversations, people reading each other’s faces. And the one I just showed you, the one-minute excerpt I showed you, you can see the daughter. This is Matthew and Sienna. They’re barely talking, and yet there’s so much going on between them, how she’s looking at him, how she’s looking down, how he looks up, how he looks down, and you can feel that it’s palpable.
And so, after two years of doing that, as our business was looking for a business model, we decided, you know what the audience is asking for these questions. Let’s just sell the questions, let’s distill what we’re doing in the videos and put them out for people. And that’s how we came to the questions and how we continue to make them.
But I think what comes up for me is what I’ve learned is, how do we have these incredible conversations? And also there’s a question of why, even why should we even do it? Why should we even leave it to that discomfort or whatnot? But to answer the first, how do you have them is A. you create the space, and secondly, you have well-constructed questions.
Greg McKeown:
So I really do want to get to the why as well. I don’t know which way to go. Let’s just stay on the how for a second. How did you curate the questions that you were using in the videos at first? For that, two years before you even created the first card game, you had to conjure up those questions. How did you do that? You had to conjure up those questions. How did you do that?
Topaz Adizes:
So I’m curious. I’m a very intuitive person, and I’ve been curious all my life and I’m just curious: what would these two people ask you? What would I want them to ask each other? And I, over 10 years of doing that, I’ve learned and that’s what’s distilled in the books just what have I found to be how do you make a really good question? When it comes to a well-constructed question in the form of relationship, in the context of relationship, how do you construct a really good question? And it’s come from trial and error, just trial and error, of seeing people do it, trying this question what if I wrote it this way? What if I wrote it this way? What if I put it in? This would happen, and obviously with not the intention of just trying, but it was in the effort of how can I create a most cathartic, how can I utilize this moment for this pair to have an incredible conversation that will change the relationship forever? How can I do that?
Greg McKeown:
And through that, that was the criteria. So, the criteria was a life-changing conversation between two people.
Topaz Adizes:
You know, look, when I did it I wasn’t saying life-changing because that was rather arrogant or quite a big idea, but I was thinking there is something here that they can learn and grow from and share. There’s something here they’re not quite telling each other that will create huge catharsis for greater growth for them and love and deeper fulfillment in the relationship. How can I unlock that? And now, after doing this for 10 years and seeing what’s happening in our community and seeing what’s happening at the card games, I can confidently say it does change your relationship forever, because one moment can change your relationship forever. One distinction, one understanding, one shared connection can change it, can elevate it. And so now I say it does change your relationship.
Greg McKeown:
Well, I mean, that’s literally true in the field of psychology. I’ve had on the podcast recently Dr. Sue Johnson, who has done more than anybody else in trying to articulate the research of secure attachment. And as a quick primer, secure attachment was started by Dr. Bowlby. It was the earth-shattering psychological theory that completely broke the paradigm of the time. What he said is that the connection between parent and child in years zero to three will shape that person’s life for the rest of their life, and at the time, it was all about keeping emotional distance between a child, and so you’d barely see them for the first 10, 12 years of your life if you were in an upper-class gentleman in England, and so he was almost thrown out of the psychological societies for even considering this theory it has turned out to be completely true. But then, past his death, other researchers, including Dr. Sue Johnson, have expanded that thinking to actual adult relationships, that what we all crave for is secure attachment, emotional connection, and so she’s used almost exactly the language you just used, that it’s about these meaningful moments, these disproportionately important moments of connection that you have or don’t have, as to whether you have a rich, deep relationship with somebody else, and so she structures one of her books Hold Me Tight is structured in seven conversations intended to be able to help you have meaningful moments in them. So your language and hers and approach are so in alignment, and I think that’s not accidental and should not be ignored, because it’s both coming from a lot of data supporting that, really, these are the moments. If they’re not happening, you will start to be detached, and if they are happening, you can have a deeper relationship for a very long period of time.
Topaz Adizes:
And maybe that leads us to why would you even have these conversations? Because, clearly, why wouldn’t you have the conversation, right From what Sue Johnson is saying, what I’m suggesting, why wouldn’t you have it? And I think the reason you don’t have it people don’t have it is because of discomfort, and we sometimes confound discomfort with safety, and they’re two separate things. We can be uncomfortable in a safe relationship, and actually, that’s really wonderful because if you think about your life and any achievement or any great moment, I promise you that right before or shortly before you had that moment of levity or achievement or fulfillment, there was a great deal of anxiety, there was a great deal of discomfort and you overcame that and something paid off.
And I think the same thing in our relationships. When we step into the discomfort of a vulnerable conversation, we step into that; we make it through, we come out stronger, our relationship comes out stronger, more resilient, and, matter of fact, you’re more fulfilled. I suggest that’s my argument is that you’re more fulfilled because the reflection of this other intimate being in your life is fueling your existence, of what it means to be alive, what it feels to be alive as a human being. I’m experiencing something. They’re experiencing. They’re reflecting back. We’re having a conversation about it. I’m not necessarily saying we have to solve it. I’m not talking about conversations that come to a solution. I’m talking about conversations that reflect our mutual existence in a relationship.
Greg McKeown:
Yeah, this distinction between discomfort and safety and how those can become synonymous for people. I love that you’re distinguishing that. Amy Edmondson, who didn’t coin the term psychological safety, but again, she’s the person who’s done more than anybody else in bringing that out into the world, especially in the world of business, as a necessary condition for all of the other things that you want. She’s keen to distinguish that psychological safety isn’t feeling safe all the time. Her definition of psychological safety is this: permission for candor. And that looks a lot more like what you’re describing and what Dr. Sue Johnson is describing and what Eve Rodsky is trying to get at right these different, let’s say, witnesses trying to solve the mystery of connection between people. It seems like the games that you’ve designed. This process is all about giving people permission for candor about things that really matter.
Topaz Adizes:
So hearing that, when I hear that she says permission and candor, what I hear from that is that you have permission to have candor such that you’re saying something that might make the other person feel uncomfortable, right? Because maybe you’re saying something really honest or direct, and so maybe a sign of a safe relationship, according to her relationship about candor, if you relate candor to discomfort, is your ability to be in discomfort and that if you don’t sit in discomfort, that means you’re not in a safe relationship. Arguably.
Greg McKeown:
I think that’s right because a toxic relationship is one in which you are endlessly walking on eggshells with each other. In the most toxic relationships, the dynamic is that each person is both predator and prey, and so you’re constantly trying to avoid triggering an interaction that will hurt you, and then you’ll hurt them, and they’ll hurt you. So the nature of a healthy relationship is one in which you’re willing to have the conversation, that there’s enough safety in it that you say this conversation, this relationship, can hack this.
Something I have learned over time is that if I have a new relationship with somebody, I want to. I don’t mean conjure a scenario; I mean allow a natural moment of correction to take place early. So if something bothers me, trying to raise that in a diplomatic way. If I think I’ve said something that seems to bother them, addressing it so that you have. It’s almost like you want not a mistake to happen soon, but you want to be able to have a curative interaction.
There’s research that shows that if you have a customer service experience, for example, that’s negative, but then whatever the company is solves it for you right, they make you feel heard and they solve it for you. Your commitment to them is higher. Your brand loyalty is higher afterward than if they hadn’t made the mistake at all. And I think that’s exactly true in relationships. It’s like you want a small problem to get addressed successfully early because then everyone knows, okay, if another problem comes up, we’re going to be able to talk about it. And we are going to talk about it. And so you are creating. It’s like sort of the. It’s the equivalent of muscle, of creating muscle in the body.
Topaz Adizes:
Sure, when you’re tearing down, like to increase muscle strength, you tear down the muscle for it to come back stronger.
Greg McKeown:
Yeah, but not too much.
Topaz Adizes:
Not too much, right, not to the point that it kills the whole organism, right? But let’s go to a very simple example of makeup sex. Why is makeup sex so good? Because you just had a conflict, you came through it, and you made up, and you’re out stronger. And now you both know that our relationship can handle that type of stress because we’ve been there, and therefore, when it comes up again, or if I see another couple having a similar fight at a dinner, I can look at my partner and go, “Yeah, we’ve been there, and we made it through.”
And there’s a certain type of resilience and deeper connection that comes from the challenges you have mutually overcome. And that’s a beautiful thing. And I think that I’m just simplifying it because why should we not be afraid of discomfort? Is because that our path of growth is lit by our discomfort. So, pursue discomfort where it appears. Those are opportunities for growth, that’s, for deepening the relationship and, if handled correctly, in a constructive way, right?
Greg McKeown:
Yes, and that comes back all to this idea of space. I want to shift to the actual questions themselves, but just in a moment. Before we do that, I want you just to express in your own words your best answer to the question, why should we engage in these kinds of conversations?
Topaz Adizes:
The payoff. The payoff is greater than not your experience. You started in the very beginning saying that we go. What is life about? We get to the very end to see if it was worth it. It’s in our relationships. How do you have? The greater the relationships you have, the more amplified your experience of being alive is. So how do you have? The greater the relationships you have, the more amplified your experience of being alive is. So, how do we have greater relationships? Well, one part is you have really good conversations. How do you have really good conversations? We have more constructive questions. But that’s why it’s the payoff. As a human being who’s living through life, the more you can experience, in the reflection of others, your relationships, the greater your sense of what it means to be alive. That’s my opinion.
Greg McKeown:
This is the conclusion of part one of our conversation. For everybody who’s listening to this, what is one idea that has stood out to you or one idea that has come to you? It’s not even what we’ve said out loud, but something that you have felt, something that has sparked inside of you. Don’t miss that. What is one thing that you can do differently immediately, and who is somebody that you can share this conversation with? This one, particularly because this can only be lived out with somebody else, so that you can continue this conversation. Now that this conversation has come to a close.
