Greg McKeown:
Welcome everybody. This is Greg McKeown, and I’m your host, and I am here with you on this journey to learn.
Today, we have part two of my conversation with Philippa Langley. Philippa Langley describes herself as an ordinary person, and maybe she is, but she has achieved an extraordinary mission. She found, against all possible odds, where King Richard III was buried. Nobody else believed her. Nobody in the academies took her seriously, but she had a conviction, a sense, and intuition that she knew where he would be, and that’s why she kept focusing on it again and again and again for eight years. Her story has been written in a book called The Lost King, and now a movie by the same name with The Lost King: The Search for King Richard III. By the end of this episode, you’ll be able to use intuition in being able to find and solve the right problem in your life.
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You must truly be amazed at moments in this journey and even now to just stand back and just think of everything that’s happened and is happening and how unlikely all of it has been that this was your mission, your unique errand, that it worked, that the Queen gave her consent and support, that now so much has been corrected in the record and more to come. You must stand amazed.
Philippa Langley:
You know, I do because I’m just an ordinary person in terms of the film that’s just been made. And they’re absolutely right. I was. I’m a housewife from Edinburgh with two sons who I was, and this should have been done by a historian. It should have been done by a scientist. It should have been done by anybody other than me. So I don’t know why it was meant to be, but for whatever reason, it was meant to be. And the time was right, I think, to go in search of Richard because whenever I came up against any closed doors, another door would open, or something else would happen. So it felt the whole time, by the time I got to cut the tarmac, that for whatever reason it was meant to be, that the time was right.
Greg McKeown:
When you say, it’s surprising that it was you, the thought in me is almost exactly the opposite. It’s like, it had to be you. It had to be you. There was nobody else. You know, like I’m a big believer in the idea that each of us has a unique mission in life, you know? And if we discover it, it authorizes us. We feel a sense of authority to go and do this thing that maybe no one else would even be interested in, or they wouldn’t approach it the way we would, and that’s my sense. It had to be you. There was no one else, not the historians. It had to be you, maybe precisely because you didn’t feel burdened by the existing narratives. Maybe because you would be fresh. You would be willing to consider something different. I think it had to be you. Any reaction to that?
Philippa Langley:
That’s a very interesting point because you’re saying that, basically, there’s a freedom around not having baggage with something. By coming fresh to something that it gives you freedom.
Greg McKeown:
Exactly.
Philippa Langley:
Yeah. That you’re not constrained by anything. And I think you’re right. I think you’re absolutely right there.
Greg McKeown:
Including not being constrained by a bias around scientific inquiry, which itself, in fact, is not scientific. You know, the presumption that intuition is not a part of the scientific process is a truly unscientific position to take because science is a process to pursue truth. And it’s a whole variety of processes. It’s not like there’s a single scientific method. There’s inductive and deductive. I mean, there’s many tools at one’s disposal to try to pursue what is correct and true. And I think that your story illustrates, as well as anything, that I have come across a sort of deeply unscientific bias that exists sometimes in the academic community. So you were free of that baggage, too. When you said, the time was right that as doors closed, the doors opened, a thought came to my mind, which is this, you can think of what you did as a historical journey, but it has a different feeling to me than that.
I have many friends, and myself included, who are interested in genealogical story, and your story feels most similar to that to me. Because it felt so personal. Because it seems to me that King Richard was a living, breathing person to you. It isn’t just a historical figure. It’s not facts and figures written about something before. It was present and real, and it mattered, and he mattered. And I have met people, and I’ve had this experience just occasionally in my life where I have felt something like that for people in my own past. A grandfather, a great-grandfather, a great-great-grandfather, and so on. And there’s a sort of spirit about that. And that’s what I feel as I hear your story and understand your story. Now you are nodding your head. Can you tell me why you’re nodding your head? What? What do you feel a connection with what I’m saying?
Philippa Langley:
I’d never thought about it like that before, but we have a program over here called, you maybe have it in America as well, called Who Do You Think You Are? And it takes well-known people. Yes, you have it. You have that program. It takes well-known people on the journey of discovery to find their ancestors. And sometimes they go way, way back. And very often, the stories are remarkable. And very often, it’s an emotional journey for them as well when they learn about what their ancestors have gone through and what happened to them. And it is a fascinating program. And I’d never thought about my journey with Richard in terms of that. Whether there is some genealogical connection or not, I don’t know. I absolutely don’t know.
Greg McKeown:
So when I watched the film, and I watched that representation of you standing on what turned out to be his grave in the car park, and there’s a physical reaction, and you’ve been describing it here, but in fact, you experienced it every single time you went to that place, the thought that hit me wasn’t just, wow, this is curious and interesting. I thought Philippa’s related to him. That’s what I thought. And I still think it now, and I feel my own very miniature version of what was represented.
So this was all kind of a meta moment and enough, in fact, that I reached out, and you know, this was an off-air interaction, but enough that I had reached out to you to try and sort of gather some information. I was trying to do it. So as a surprise, on the sly, let’s say, to try and find a connection. But I reached out to one of my most connected people in genealogy to try and make this connection because I think there’s more there to it. It’s way too personal. That’s how I read it.
Philippa Langley:
I hear where you’re coming from. I don’t, I honestly don’t think I can be related to him because at the dig, we all had our DNA taken because we had to, because we didn’t want any cross-contamination with any, you know, if any remains were found, that would likely be ones that we would want to do testing on. So my DNA is completely different to the king’s.
But you know, one of the things that another scientist said to me, and again, I’m just putting this out there, I don’t know if it’s a thing, I don’t know, but they said there’s something called genetic memory that they’re looking into now, and that they’re finding that certain genes hold memories. And this scientist who’d been at one of my talks, you know, said to me, have you gone back with your ancestry? Do you know who was alive at the time of Richard III?
And I said, no, I have no idea. Because what they say is, if there’s been a traumatic event at some point, it can imprint into your DNA, and then at some point come out in a descendant, and it could be centuries after the event. So I don’t know whether they can, you know, find evidence to confirm this theory that they’re looking into. I don’t know. But obviously, if there was a traumatic event, for example, what they spoke about was if one of my ancestors actually fought at the Battle of Bosworth, was there that day. But the crucial thing is they survived because they had to survive for it to imprint on the DNA and then to be carried through.
Greg McKeown:
That’s a great point. That’s a great point.
Philippa Langley:
Yeah. So I don’t know, that’s what this scientist said to me.
Greg McKeown:
Let’s just give a definition here. A genetic memory theorized phenomenon in which certain kinds of memories could be inherited by being present at birth in the absence of any associated sensory experience. And that such memories could be incorporated into the genome over long spans of time. And my understanding is that this has been explored in a variety of ways. I’ve studied it within the realm of intergenerational trauma, which is a relatively established reality that people can experience trauma in their own lives and have unresolved trauma in their own lives from something that happened to their, let’s say, great-grandparents. Maybe they never even met them, but they’re still experiencing things. There is still work to be done within themselves to make adjustments for challenges and unresolved problems that went before them. So it has a lot of profound implications for people trying to make sense of themselves.
There’s another term, a psychological term that’s well established, called Intergenerational Self. And what that research shows is that the more you develop a sense of intergenerational self, the more resilient you will be in your life. Because you start to see your own story as part of a much greater narrative, a much longer narrative, and a more resilient narrative. Because all these people before you went through all these different ups and downs and crazy experiences, and they survived because you are here, and it helps you to see your own life with a better sense of perspective.
So that’s just a sort of an aside, but it seems to me that there is at least one more mission for you to pursue in this subject area. If it can be true, as you keep saying, an ordinary person, I don’t know that I love that term for you, but if it can be true that an ordinary person can have this journey, it surely can be true that there’s more to the story that hasn’t yet unfolded, that it isn’t finished. I feel a high confidence level that more will be discovered as you pursue this genealogical journey. That’s how I feel. It’s an odd thing to say it directly to you, but that’s exactly how I feel. What’s your reaction to that?
Philippa Langley:
I don’t know, Greg. I would be really fascinated to hope that the scientists can continue with their research and maybe give us more information in that regard. But for sure, when this scientist mentioned this to me, I thought, “Wow, you know, that’s remarkable.”
It was the first time I’d heard about this possibility, but then I thought, you know, it kind of makes some form of sense because so many people have said to me why the Tudor period here in England has always been such a period of interest. And there’s so many people who are interested in the Tudor period. And I asked this scientist about that, and I said, well, what about the Tudor period? You know, why is it so popular? Why do so many people feel a connection to the Tudor period? And they thought that because it was such religious times then, and there was a massive change in the direction of people’s religion because we went from being a Catholic country to suddenly being Protestant and the Reformation and all of that took place, that this was a hugely traumatic experience for a nation. And I thought that is really fascinating. I’d love to see more research into that. Again, it’s for the scientists to question, and maybe they’ll come up with things.
Greg McKeown:
Yeah. Or it might be, or it might be something for you. It might be something for you to question and explore. That leads me to that question, like, what’s next for you is where is this journey taking you now? What is your intuition telling you to do next?
Philippa Langley:
Well, funnily enough, this one’s not intuition. This one is purely a research-based research initiative. And I started this project in, I started thinking about it in 2015, but then I formally launched it in 2016, and it’s called The Missing Princes Project.
So there’s probably a big clue in the title there. This is about trying to discover what happened to the so-called princes in the tower. These were the sons of Edward IV. Edward and Richard, who were apparently last seen in the Tower of London in 1483. And they were the nephews of Richard III. And the story goes that we have told ourselves for over 500 years is that Richard III murdered them or had them murdered to become king. So what this project is doing is doing a deep dive into this mystery and researching it. And later this year, Greg, we’re going to be making some very, very exciting announcements.
Greg McKeown:
Oh, I’m so excited. I wait with bated breath for that discovery. But you said it’s not intuitive, but it seems to me, at least if I’m reading what you’ve written, and then, of course, the movie representation as well, correctly, this is completely hand in glove consistent with this sense. You have that King Richard has been falsely accused that the narrative has been inherently and extremely negative when the reality is not that this seems consistent with what you said previously about reputation matters, that it’s personal for you to figure out whether this most heinous accusation against King Richard is true or not.
Philippa Langley:
Yes, I think so. Because you know, in order to properly lay this man to rest, I think we have to try and solve this and look into it. So again, instead of repeat, repeat, repeat, it’s question, question, question. And that’s what the project has been doing for the last sort of five years. And that’s why we’ve made the discoveries that we have.
Greg McKeown:
Philippa, thank you for being on the podcast with me today.
Philippa Langley:
Thank you for having me, Greg. Thank you.
Greg McKeown:
Thank you. Really, thank you for listening to this part two conversation with Philippa Langley. What is one thing that stood out to you from today’s conversation, and what is one thing you can do immediately within the next five to ten minutes to put this into action? And who is someone you can share something with from today’s episode?
I hope you will take advantage of the full ecosystem that I’ve been putting together to be able to help you design a life that really matters. Use the 1-Minute Wednesday newsletter, and subscribe to this podcast. Read Essentialism, read Effortless. Become a member of the Essentialism Academy. All of these things can help you to live a life that really matters. I’ll see you next time.
