Greg McKeown:
Welcome everyone. I’m your host, Greg McKeown, and I am here with you on this journey to learn so that we can operate at our highest point of contribution. Today is part two of the conversation with Ron Johnson, formerly the Senior Vice President at Apple. He was the lead designer of the Apple retail stores, as well as the Genius Bar and many other things that we take for granted in the experience that Apple successfully created. If you’ve ever wanted to see behind the curtain about how the Apple transformation was achieved, not by the caricature of Steve Jobs, but by the person himself, the leader, then this conversation is meaningful. It’s interesting, and I think you’re going to enjoy it. Let’s get to it.
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Jeremy Utley:
Ron, the two examples you gave us are both from, this is a bad idea to, this is a good idea, which that’s got to feel great, right? And I can imagine that kind of clarity, you know…to me, I wonder, does it cut both ways? Were there times where something was a great idea and quickly became a bad idea? And what and how did that go?
Ron Johnson:
No, not many times. I’m sure there were. There were some locations we had that Steve didn’t like. You know, there was one on 34th Street in New York that we actually walked away from. He was right on that. But I want to go back if I could for, to what Greg said.
Steve believed that it was interesting. He knew I valued kindness. That was my number one. It’s always been my number one thing. Kindness is a choice we make. I tell my kids someone’s the best athlete in the class. That’s a gift. My kids were both really smart. You guys are really smart. That’s a gift to be a kind person. That’s a choice you make every day. Right?
And he, Steve, knew I believed in kindness, and he said, “Ron, when I think of kindness, the highest form of kindness is telling the truth. Letting someone know where they stand because I wear my opinions on my sleeve. You’ll always know what, when I like something, and when I don’t.”
And he was right on that because I never had any doubt about where I stood with Steve. There were times…
Jeremy Utley:
It reminds me of a great, there’s a great expression from GSB Professor, I don’t know if Greg, if you ever took his class, but Irv Grousbeck. He has this great quote. He’s one of the owners of the Boston Celtics. And he often says, “Never mistake vagueness with compassion.”
Greg McKeown:
Totally. Clarity is kindness. But the thing that one has to wrestle with for a moment is how different that is from most management experiences and most corporate cultures. They do not breed clarity. They breed confusion, ambiguity, guessing. Everyone’s reading the tea leaves for everything. Well, what does the person think? And oh, the business thinks this. And so you just live your life in these organizations in a guessing mode. And I think it produces, of course, it’s frustrating for everyone, but I think it makes everything so much harder.
Ron Johnson:
I agree.
Greg McKeown:
And so then…
Ron Johnson:
Greg, I think that’s because it goes back to that classic management leadership paradigm. Most companies are managed. Harvard Business School teaches you to be a manager. Right? Apple is a culture of leadership. Right. Leaders are comfortable pushing the end vote. Leaders are comfortable making opinions, you know, management cultures. It’s like, well, I can’t present this idea unless I get approval in advance. I’ve got to make sure everyone in the pyramid supports me before I talk about something.
It’s just a different culture. But that’s what made working at Apple during the time I was there. At least super unique. And I think Steve’s relationship was the same with every other leader of the ET. That’s kind of how he loved to work. And we all adapted to him. But he was so authentic. Authenticity is the other thing he really valued. He said, “If I’m myself, you’ll learn to work with me. If I’m not authentic, you’re going to wonder, well, which Steve is this?”
Greg McKeown:
You’ll never know. You’ll never know what you’re getting.
Ron Johnson:
You never know what you’re getting. So he was just an authentic, passionate person who wanted to change the world. And he had done that when he was in his twenties with the Apple. And I think once you do that, he just lived to have these great moments where he created things to change the world. Whether it’s a movie, a product, an application. And he would live for these things. It was like one hit after the next. And he wouldn’t bring them out until they met his standard. When we were doing the iPhone, a lot of people thought it would never come out. ’cause You could never build a phone that would meet his standard. And it took a long time. But that’s why he was so exceptional at what he did. And that was true with our stores.
Another kind of interesting moment I remember is he used to love to come to the openings of our big flagship stores. He flew to Tokyo on Thanksgiving weekend. We opened our first international store at the Ginza in Tokyo. He came to New York when we opened a store, our first New York store, the post office down in Soho. And that was an interesting story ’cause we timed the opening to Macworld. We used to do four Mac Worlds a year. There was a New York Mac world. We had the opening the day after Mac World. And our openings had been legendary. We had thousands of people waiting in line. And we had the Mac World. The papers were pretty negative on Mac World for whatever reason. It was kind of like writing Apple’s death. The copy stock price was at an all-time low. There weren’t a lot of believers in what Steve and everyone was doing. So Steve gets over to the opening at nine o’clock, and there are 45 people in line. Nobody’s there.
Greg McKeown:
Wow.
Ron Johnson:
And I had misjudged. I didn’t realize in New York, people stay out late. They don’t get up early. . . But Steve walks in, and he goes, “Well, this is a great opening.”
I said, “I’m sorry, we probably should open at a different time or a different day.”
And he said, “I should just give up.” He pulls me aside. He goes, “I’m just tired. I’ve been working really hard. Nobody cares. We did Macworld yesterday. Nobody cares. Nobody cares about your store here in New York.” He goes, “I’m going to leave.”
I said, “Okay.”
So he went back to the hotel. Right. Tough day. I mean, tough day for me. Tough day for Steve. And about 11 o’clock, we start counting. We had a clicker. A thousand people walked into the store that hour. And at 12 o’clock was busier, and they’re starting to line up outside. So I called Steve up; he was staying up at the Four Seasons. I said, “Steve, you got to come back.”
He goes, “No.”
I said, “I want you to come back.”
And he said, “I’ve already been there once today. I saw the store.”
I said, “Will you please come back?”
He said, “Okay.”
He came down and got there around one o’clock. The store was filled. He came in, looked around, we walked up to the stairs. There was this glass bridge on the second floor at the back of the store. You might recall if you’ve been there under a skylight. Steve and I stood there till 7:30 at night. Six and a half hours, whatever that is. Just watching customers soaking in. And it was one of our great moments together because it was the first time he saw the love and why he wanted the stores. He wanted to connect to the customer. He’s not doing that every day. But he saw person after person coming in, trying his products, getting help with The Genius Bar. Buying. Everything he dreamed of happened in that moment. And that was just one of the most beautiful moments for the two of us. And a few years later, we opened that Fifth Avenue store, the Glass Cube. And Steve played a big part in helping us create that story. And…
Greg McKeown:
Let’s go back to that moment that, that sort of clearly, really genuinely precious moment for you, for him as well. Everything you shared in the story is, again, this idea of, I mean, we could call it authenticity, but it’s authenticity plus clarity. It’s some other formula that’s being created there where you know exactly what he’s thinking. And so, I mean, including the disappointment, I should just give up. This is exhausting. I’m fed up with all of this. And so you know what he’s dealing with. And then, no, I’m not coming down. Even that’s clear. Okay, fine. I’m doing it. I’m all in. If I’m doing it, I’m going to come. Fine. Like at every moment. And you know what you’re dealing with, which flies in the face of this caricature. That so frustrates me anyway. I don’t know if it frustrates you or not, but this idea.
When you create a caricature of Steve Jobs, you do a lot of damage without knowing it. Because this sort of lazy journalism produces other people who are imitating, not Steve Jobs, which itself would be, is kind of problematic thing to do. But you are imitating a fabricated version of Steve Jobs. So now you just have a bunch of rubbish aspiring CEOs and executives who are doing what they think he was doing, which is not what he was doing. And I think it really actually has done a lot of damage for a lot of people. Especially when the real version was something worthy of emulation. Anyway, just your reaction to any of that.
Ron Johnson:
It’s, I, well, like I always felt I’ve got a pretty good EQ. But I think it goes back to Steve invested a lot of time with me, so I knew how he thought. And so I had good instincts about what he needed, what, when to use his time. Like, come back here; you’re going to love it. I had a good relationship with Steve. I was very lucky. And it came from good moments and hard moments, but it all, and I would guess most of the people that were close to him, felt the same way. They knew what Steve was thinking at all times. because he was so direct, so transparent, wear his opinions on the sleeve. And that’s probably misunderstood because he was not ever mean to be mean. He was mean when he expected more. He didn’t tolerate good work. He wanted great work. Very smart people. He expected me if I brought someone in who wasn’t very smart,
Greg McKeown:
He wasn’t going to enjoy that.
Ron Johnson:
Wasn’t going to enjoy that. He would let me know pretty quickly. He would judge people in one minute. I mean, if they weren’t smart, he would leave. You know? And that wasn’t very nice. I mean, it wasn’t very nice. But I remember we were, we had these three guys coming out to do real estate, and we had, I wanted to hire them, but I wanted Steve to meet them first. Another funny story. And they came into the room, and they were going to tell ’em about how they were going to do real estate for Apple and how they pick sites. And after five minutes, Steve said, “You’re not, you guys. You’re not ready. You’re wasting my time.” And someone tried, “I don’t want to hear from you. You guys might not be smart enough to work for Apple.” And he walked out, and we all sat there and going, wow.
That was interesting. But he didn’t feel they were prepared. And I went to him. He said, “Ron,” he goes, “if that’s your group,” he goes, “I’m nervous.”
I said, “Look, I’ll have them come back in a week. We’ll meet again.”
He said, “Fine, I trust you. But you know, have them come back in a week, and hopefully, they’ll be ready.”
A week later. We go through the same scene. We’re in the same conference room where I’d interview Steve right next to his office. One o’clock comes, and they’re ready. 1:15 comes. Steve doesn’t show up. And all of a sudden, Andre says, “Ron, Steve wants to talk.”
“This, it’s your call. Do what you want.” And he didn’t even meet them. So he was a great delegator, but he wanted to make sure we had high standards. So he could be tough in that way, and most people would, oh, he should have been more polite. But that was Steve.
Greg McKeown:
Jeremy, you were going to jump in with something?
Jeremy Utley:
I was just curious, Ron, to me, it seems that clarity, I would hope it begets reciprocation. That you could also be clear with him. I wonder if it took any kind of adjustment on your part because, depending on the culture, I don’t know what it was like at Target, but how was it for you adjusting to communicating with him?
Ron Johnson:
Well, I was very comfortable telling Steve what I thought. I remember his commencement speech at Stanford. Jeremy, you might’ve been there, but I was pretty close to him when he was writing that. We’d talk about what he’s going to include. It was kind of fun. And he knew I was going to be there the day of his speech because I was a Stanford grad and all this stuff. And the speech ceremony’s usually at 10 o’clock. At 11 o’clock, it was over. My phone rings. I’m still walking out of the stadium. And he goes, “Ron, how are you? How are the stores? How’s it going?” He didn’t ask me about the speech.
And I said to him, I said, “Steve, I thought you’re, I said…
Greg McKeown:
That’s right. Actually, I got to pause on that. I know you’re about to explain more, but that really is surprising. That really is surprising.
Ron Johnson:
I knew he wanted to ask about it, it’s only natural, but I didn’t bring it up at the start. I just listened. And he asked a couple of questions, and I just said, there’s an awkward pause. I said, “Steve, people are saying great things about your speech.”
And he said, “Oh, that’s nice, but what did you think?”
And I said, “I thought it was good.” I said, “The stories were very well done. I liked how it was laid out.”
He said, “Okay, thank you.” Hangs up. Phone rings in two minutes. “Ron, give me a grade.” He goes, “I want to know how you think I did.”
And I gave him a B+. And he said, “Okay.” And I told him why. And he said, “Thank you.” And that was it. Now I start reading the next day. This is like the world’s best commencement press ever. I feel like, I guess I missed that one.
Greg McKeown:
No, but actually, Ron, I think it’s really intriguing because it reminds me of when the iPad came out and Steve gets a thousand emails, and many of them are really brutal because okay, you have, you’ve used a different lead, and how dare you. He said, “It’s just so much to swallow that this getting this awful feedback.” But of course, iPad goes on to be this runaway success. But I think the speech is a bit like that. The speech is, I don’t know, how would I describe it? It’s not super high energy. It’s very Steve. It’s like look a little understated in a way, in the way I’m trying to, I’m delivering this. But it’s a speech that has become more and more beloved over time than with his death. Suddenly everybody returns to it and rewatches it. And there’s these personal stories. And it’s like that has had a very long shelf life maybe improved over time.
Ron Johnson:
That’s exactly how wise Steve is. Because when I gave him the grade, it’s kind of what you said, Greg. I said, “Steve, you know, you read the speech, and I thought your energy level was low. You know, I’ve had the privilege of sitting in the front row of you, giving talk after talk. And you’re the most inspiring person I know. And I was engaged, but I wasn’t inspired. And I would want to be inspired if I’m graduating. That was kind of the conversation. And that’s why I gave you a B+.
But he said to me, he said, “Ron, the thing about a graduation speech, is what they’re going to remember is not how you felt. It’s what you said. Every word matters. And the only way to get the words right is to read the speech.” He goes, “This is going to stand. It has to stand the test of time. Test of today.” Something along those lines. He was right, though. But that’s Steve. Steve had the ability to understand that he is going to do this once. That he had to be very personal, that he wanted to connect with these kids and kids forever and other people. But that was Steve. He had the ability to see things well beyond what, like I would look at just, how’d you do on your speech today? He was looking at this in perpetuity almost.
Greg McKeown:
Yeah. It’s a particular story that captures my attention because, of course, all of us have given speeches, and I’ve spent, I’ve spent with decent amounts over the last sort of 20 years doing this. And so to be able to appreciate like, okay, it, I mean, who knows how much really was design and how much is, is hard to know what’s intentional and what’s not in this story. But even this idea of, no, I do have to read this one. Every word will count over time.
Ron Johnson:
That was what he said. Yeah.
Greg McKeown:
I mean, I think that’s a really important choice because if you’re reading a speech, it is hard to make it as immediately connected with the audience because you’re not responding to them. If they’re a little less energy, you can jump up to energy, you can change your story, you can do all sorts of things if you are prioritizing the energy of the people in that audience at that moment. But if you are saying no, I want this to be for many audiences and even for these people to watch again and again. I’m trying to craft every word. I mean, that’s a, it’s an interesting story when you see how it’s all come out.
Ron Johnson:
The other one I was going to tell you real quick is when we opened the New York stores, we opened this beautiful Fifth Avenue store, and you get to do one store on Fifth Avenue ever. And the Apple store just turned out to be this unbelievable store. And it’s one of the most, it’s still…
Greg McKeown:
It’s iconic. It really is iconic.
Ron Johnson:
And I loved Harry Mackwell, the developer said, “Apple changed the skyline of Manhattan. Normally that’s done at 55 or 60 stories. They did that in 32 feet.”
Greg McKeown:
Yeah. Wow. That’s true.
Ron Johnson:
Which was a great tribute. But what’s interesting is Steve came to the opening, and we had fun, and we went to dinner that night down at Nobu in Soho. And we sat down to dinner. He said, “You know what I love about Apple?” And there were about eight of us there, I think. He said, “We’re going to spend five minutes talking about the Fifth Avenue store and the next two or three hours talking about the next store.”
That’s another thing about Steve, it was one thing at a time; once he did it, he moved on, and it was about the next great thing he got to do. And that was a really interesting thing because he wasn’t ever pat himself on the back. Look what I did. It was all about producing something. And I remember walking, looking at the store, and he was going through every fitting in the glass and his eyes looking at the stair and seeing how it was constructed and how well it was put together. And we met his standards, which was very gratifying. But he just loved the design and the beauty of a well-constructed piece. It was like a piece of art to him. And, but I love that. I’ll never forget that message. We’ll spend five minutes talking about that store, and then we’ll spend the rest of dinner talking about the next. And that’s a good lesson for people: live your life forward.
Jeremy Utley:
I’m mindful of time. I want to make sure that we hear because I know you have one more moment that you want to talk about. Is that right, Ron?
Ron Johnson:
Well, I don’t, but you asked if you can share kind of when you met Steve and the last time you saw him, and so I will tell you. I had a chance to go visit Steve at his home probably a week before he passed away. Maybe eight days, maybe six days in that, not at the very end. But I go to his house a lot. Most of my meetings in the last few years were at his home. And it was amazing. No security guards. It’s so different than today. The door was unlocked. I would just walk in the front door, go to the kitchen, maybe see Lorraine or the kids, and go back to see Steve. There’s no knocking on the doors. But it was very different. But I got there a lot. And, but the last time I went and saw him, we went there. He asked me to come over and spent about an hour.
Greg McKeown:
Can I interrupt for a second? I don’t mean to, but I just, what you just said about being different than today, I just, I wonder really, because even back then you, there were plenty of Silicon Valley visionaries and bigwigs who had their entourage and had and put lots of barriers between them and others. And so it just seems like it’s more that he was different than it is just that the times were different.
Ron Johnson:
Well, I agree. I agree with that. Yeah. But I, I live in an area where, you know where the CEOs are because the security guards are always outside the house 24 hours a day. People do that. And I think it was more, Steve, you’re exactly right. But that last day we spent probably an hour, and it was really interesting. It was a lovely conversation. He was very frail, tired, lying in bed. But he, at the end, he said, “Ron,” he goes, “You and Bill Campbell.” Bill Campbell was a legendary, the coach of the valley and just a great guy, a terrific guy. A good friend of mine coached my son’s eighth-grade football, a lot of history there. But he said, “The two of you, you seem to like to hug people. I almost see you hugging people when you say goodbye.”
I said, “Yeah, that’s my nature.”
He goes, “But you’ve never given me a hug.”
And I said, “Well, I just don’t think you’re that kind of guy.”
He goes, “Well, I’d really like a hug.”
And it was really touching. And so the only way to do it, I had to literally crawl in bed because he couldn’t get out of bed. But we shared a pretty special moment. That was a really nice way for him to say goodbye. And I’m guessing he did that as much for me as for him. But it was a great, great memory.
Jeremy Utley
Wow.
Greg McKeown:
Earlier, you had said that Steve loved products, and he loved people, and he loved all of it. And I wanted to ask then, but this is like a better time to say it. Like, did you feel loved by Steve?
Ron Johnson:
Absolutely. In a very authentic way. When I did something good, he would let me know, and his eyes would sparkle. When he’d tell me and when I did something bad, he would be very direct. But he shared great appreciation with me at all times. And that last conversation, he was very appreciative of all the work we’d done together. And I won’t get into more than the hug, but it was, I felt very much loved by Steve. Yeah.
Jeremy Utley:
And at that point, you had already moved on from Apple, right?
Ron Johnson:
I hadn’t left yet. No. I had, I had announced I was leaving, but Steve asked me to stay for six months or until he passed because he was nearing the end. And so I was able to stay until he passed and then moved on. So that was kind of the time of Jeremy. Okay. But thank you for asking.
Greg McKeown:
Do you miss him?
Ron Johnson:
I think about him all the time. You know, what I mean is I think everyone who works on that closely, they would say the same thing. You’re kind of asking what would Steve do. He was such a clear thinker, and he had such a unique point of view on the world on every so many subjects you’re constantly thinking about what would Steve do. So I think about him a lot. I do. And that’s where it’s actually been kind of fun to chat with you about it. because I haven’t talked about him for a long time with someone. And hopefully, this has been, hopefully, through these stories, there’s been something that will inspire someone to learn something from Steve. Something that at least I saw value in that will help them in their walk. Whether it’s whatever that might be.
Greg McKeown:
Well, Ron, you’ve had a really unique seat at the table. Of course, this isn’t the only contribution that you’ve made during the period at Apple. But you were able to experience, observe and be part of the renaissance of Apple. Really, I think the greatest turnaround in certainly of that decade, but maybe of maybe 50 years or something. I mean, it’s an unbelievable turnaround story, especially as you look at sort of how it’s all become as a company. And you were there at the table all through that in the conversations with Steve directly. I know I’m speaking Jeremy here, saying how grateful we are for you to take the time to share some of those poignant moments, some of those keys that can live on for a long time with us. And for everyone who’s listening, thank you for your time and for your insights.
Ron Johnson:
Well, this was my privilege, my pleasure. But I will say it wasn’t, I was just one of many; there were a lot of people, and I made a little contribution, but so many people did. And I want to compliment Tim for what he’s done. Tim joined about 95 or seven. He was there with the Mac, he was there throughout the retail stores. He helped with the retail stores. But you know, if Tim hadn’t shepherded the company so fabulously the last decade post-Steve, the last 11 years since Steve’s been gone, we probably wouldn’t think about the company in the same way. It’d just be another company that had a moment. But it’s endured. And some of the products that have endured were ones Steve imagined the iPhone, the iPod, iPad, the things he worked on, the apps, and the way you have a unified system, hardware, and software. So much in Apple was originally conceived by Steve. But Tim has taken that to another level. And the way he’s built this business, when I joined Apple, we did $5 billion in revenue a year. Today Apple does $3 billion a day.
Jeremy Utley:
That’s insane.
Ron Johnson:
I think of that company with, hey, 1.2 billion, we had a few million customers. There’s a billion two. It’s remarkable.
Greg McKeown:
It’s phenomenal.
Ron Johnson:
All of the team at Apple has done, through the years, led by Steve, continued with amazing leadership by Tim. I was just, I’m just happy to have been a part of it.
Greg McKeown:
So I can’t help but share a Tim moment here. I was at Stanford when he was the CFO as a student, and we were invited to many, many events. So you got, you really are being spoiled all the time. Bill Gates is coming to speak at this event. And, at that moment, people sometimes were spoiled. They had an Apple visitation. Okay, you’re going to go meet with the executives in the finances team there at Apple. And I arrived, I was the only person to turn up for probably, I don’t know, 45 minutes or something. So Tim’s in there with his immediate team of people and me, and it was awkward for me because I felt really embarrassed that they had their whole executive team there. And there’s me, and I’m not qualified to be meeting with this executive team all these years back.
But the reason I share it is it tells you something about Apple’s position then versus now. It’s, I mean, it says something about being spoiled at the GSB, but it, it also says like it’s unthinkable now for the same situation to take place, but at that time, it’s later than you’re describing. But there were three $10 billion businesses, and that’s it. That’s the whole company. And could there be a fourth $10 billion business? And of course, as you describe it, there’s been this whole Tim phase that has sought to be true to that spirit and principles and ways of thinking and ways of doing business that were incorporated in when you were there when Steve was there.
Ron Johnson:
Right. Well, thanks, guys. Everyone’s got better things to do now than talk about Apple and Steve.
Greg McKeown:
Jeremy, give us the last word.
Jeremy Utley:
Ron, it’s awesome to learn from you. You’re a wonderful professor, and I really love your statement. I wrote it down. Kindness is a choice. I think it’s a great thing to remember. It’s not a gift, it’s a choice. Maybe one could say it’s a choice that becomes a gift to others. And I appreciate that being a mantra that you’ve lived by. I think it’s a great thing for all of us and something clearly that, that even impacted Steve and how he thought about delivering messages. So thank you very much for sharing your time. I know that it’s, sometimes diving back into the past can be emotional, but I really appreciate you being willing to go there with us and share with us. It means a lot to us, and we hope that lots of people, as you said, really glean insights from this session and are able to implement them into their lives in meaningful ways. So thanks again, and thanks, everyone, for listening. Until next time, we’ll see you soon.
Ron Johnson:
Thank you.
Greg McKeown:
Thank you.
There it is. Five meaningful moments, five conversations that have stayed with Ron Johnson all these years. It’s a reminder to all of us about the tremendous power that is within us to be able to have not just conventional conversations with people but conversations that matter, moments that are vulnerable and real that help us to really understand what’s essential to other people and also to reveal what’s essential from within us.
What is one thing that stood out to you in this conversation with Ron? What is one thing that you can do differently immediately because of what you’ve learned, and who is someone you can share this episode with? So the conversation can continue now that this episode has come to an end. Thank you. Really thank you for listening, and I’ll see you next time.
