Greg McKeown:
Welcome. I’m your host, Greg McKeown, and I’m here with you on this journey to learn. Today I’ve invited Matt Abrahams to the show. Matt is a lecturer at Stanford. He specializes in the essentials of strategic communication and is the host of the Think Fast Talk Smart podcast. And today, I had a window come up on my calendar, and I reached out to Matt to issue a friendly challenge by way of an invitation to think fast, talk smart about how to think fast. Talk smart on this podcast? He wrote back, I love a challenge game on. By the end of this episode, you will be able to make your communication more memorable. Let’s begin.
If you want to learn faster, understand more deeply, and increase your influence, teach the ideas in this podcast to someone else within the next 24 to 48 hours.
Listen, it’s so good to have you on the show. Thank you for accepting this spontaneous challenge.
Matt Abrahams:
Well, thank you. You know, spontaneity is what I’m all about these days, so…
Greg McKeown:
Let’s get straight to it now. You’ve spent years and years thinking about strategic communication, thinking about how to help people, not just deliver a message, not just do this thing, but to be able to do it better and better and better to continually improve in the art of communication with an emphasis in creating memorable communication. And so here’s my first question to you. Can you share, right off the top of your head, one story that captures for you the spirit of memorable communication?
Matt Abrahams:
As trite as it is, when Steve Jobs introduced the iPod for the first time, it was incredibly memorable. A thousand songs in your pocket, the power of that moment, the concision of that message, the emotion and excitement that it invoked, tremendous. Now you can like Steve Jobs or not. You can be a fan of Apple or not, but in terms of being strategic, of being impactful, and being concise, I think it’s up there as a top message that really resonates with people.
Greg McKeown:
It was within a very key specific challenging time as well. The very beginning of the renaissance Apple that we all take for granted now. That decade of innovation that began with the new EAC and then moved on to the iPod, then to the iPhone, and then you know, go forward a few years, the most valuable company on the planet, it’s…
Matt Abrahams:
Then we mustn’t forget Greg, and we mustn’t forget it started podcasting what you do so well and what I’m trying to do as well.
Greg McKeown:
Oh, that’s such a nice point that without the iPod, there wouldn’t be podcasting. I mean, that’s probably literally true. It wouldn’t be called podcasting. That’s for absolute sure, but perhaps it wouldn’t exist at all because of the democratization of the spoken word that took place. And even now is just at the beginning of its journey. Building on this first question, if you could share just one communication skill that you think is the most relevant in the world right now, what would it be?
Matt Abrahams:
In order to cut through all the clutter and to be engaging, which to me means focused attention, you must make sure your communication is goal driven. And by goal driven, I mean three things. It’s all about information, emotion, and action. What do we need our audience to know? What do we want them to feel, and what is it we want them to do? And implied in that goal-driven nature is we must be audience-centric. Because in order for me to make a communication relevant to you so you engage in it, I have to understand it from your perspective. So when I craft my goal, know, feel, do information, emotion, and action; it is all from your perspective. I believe that is the fundamental truth of effective connected communication. And in all the episodes that I’ve done on my podcast, it is the number one bit of advice people give me when I ask a similar question of them.
Greg McKeown:
That’s just a moment of complete agreement between us, a meeting of the minds even. Because I certainly, if I were answering this question from a slightly different perspective, would say the number one thing that speakers, teachers in a formal sense, and then perhaps everybody else in an informal sense, myself included, the number one mistake that is made is to not spending enough time in the mind of the people you are trying to influence.
Give us, if you can, some specific ways that we can do just that. Get into the mind of the people that we are trying to influence. What are the best tactics for that?
Matt Abrahams:
I think the first tactic is to slow down. We are often rushing and not giving ourselves time to reflect. And we really need to give ourselves that time, and we need to ask ourselves some foundational questions. What does my audience know about the topic that I’m, we have all been part of communication where somebody started too high level, too low level. What do they know? How do they feel towards the topic? What are their attitudes? What are their potential resistance points? In order to answer those questions, we have to give ourselves space to have those thoughts to think about it. We then need to do some reconnaissance, reflection, and research to get those answers. So that could be cyberstalking, looking at LinkedIn, people’s bios, it could be talking to people who know them. It could be looking at the writings or podcasts of the people you’re discussing or having the conversation with. It is taking the time to really reflect and think about who the audience is.
The biggest challenge, then, is to adjust and adapt in the moment. So you go into the interaction thinking one thing, and then you are greeted by reality. That’s where this whole spontaneous speaking comes in because you have to be agile and adept at adjusting based on where you land with what you assumed is where your audience was at. So it’s about giving yourself space and time and then also giving yourself permission to adjust and adapt in the moment.
Greg McKeown:
It seems to me, in my own experience, that in a live conversation with people, if you pause to listen and understand the other side, it is to your own huge advantage because you give yourself space to think because you prepare an answer in the end that has precise relevance to the person you are speaking with in that moment. Nevertheless, what I have observed is that people don’t do exactly what you’re describing. Why not?
Matt Abrahams:
I think there are a few reasons. One, I think we are nervous, and as part of nervousness, we fill space and time. Second, we feel that if I take a moment of reflection, it might signal weakness, it might signal doubt. And then, finally, I feel many of us are afraid if I pause, others will take the space, and I lose the opportunity to keep my momentum going.
So I think we have three things conspiring against us, but there are tools to counteract that. For example, if you pause and somebody takes the floor from you, you can paraphrase what they’re saying and regain the opportunity to speak. You can ask a question in the moment of what they’re saying to again, get the floor back, and continue the conversation going. So in pausing beyond getting the benefit of reflection and adjustment, there are tools that you can use if somebody fills the space that you gave up.
Greg McKeown:
One rule of thumb that I’ve heard you share is the idea that you should look at the event that you are planning for the meeting, the conversation, the interaction, and however long there is between now, and then you cut it in half the first half for content and the second half to practice, to prepare that content, to be able to have half of the time available to you, whatever the amount of time is to do the actualising of it. Your thoughts?
Matt Abrahams:
Practice is really important. It is critical to give yourself the space to try on what it is you’ve crafted. Many of us wait till the last minute to create content at all. At least you started from some initial content. Most of us beg, borrow and steal things that we created in the past or others created, slam it together, and try to remember what we’re saying as we’re delivering it. And then we feel shocked that it didn’t go well. You need to give yourself time to actually practice and prepare. And by practice, I mean give yourself permission to do it differently each time. Many of us try to memorize and script everything out. And that again precludes us from actually doing it as well as we can. So you have to build in that time, and that’s why I like that very simple guideline of half the time before you speak is dedicated to preparation of the content and half to the practice.
Greg McKeown:
You gave a talk at the Stanford Graduate School of Business called How to Make Your Communication Memorable, and at the very end of that presentation did a Q and A, and at the very end of that Q and A offered a comment that caught my attention. You said there are three bottom-line tools for effective communication. Number one, the goal; number two, the structure; and number three, paraphrasing. Can you express a little more about what each of those means and why they’re so important to be able to communicate effectively?
Matt Abrahams:
Well first thank you for remembering my talk on being memorable. That makes me feel good.
Having a goal is critical. I alluded to this before, so many of us are victimized by people who just ramble on and on. We’re part of their stream of consciousness that makes a great challenge.
Greg McKeown:
I just, I have to interrupt that. I don’t mean to, but that’s so pressing for me because of some of the interactions I have been in over the last few weeks where literally an entire lecture is one way, monotonous. Exactly the same tone. And despite the announcement at the beginning that this will be interactive and please participate, no questions are asked, no space for communication is given and everybody is tuned out within a very short period of time. How did you say it? Lots of us are victims to other people.
Matt Abrahams:
Yeah, we’re victimized. But yes, absolutely.
Greg McKeown:
And I felt that recently
Matt Abrahams:
And I’m sorry for that, and I think all of us relate. All of us can relate to that. And that is why it is so important to first and foremost, figure out what your goal is. Know, feel, do for your audience. And really what that is saying, that is code for saying you must make your content relevant and salient to the people you’re speaking to. If it’s relevant and salient, then people will connect to it or at least give you an opportunity to connect to them. So having a goal, know, feel, do and the feeling part is critical. Many of us are so attached to the information that we forget the emotion. If I can make you feel excited, concerned, fear of missing out, validated, all of a sudden you and I are having a very different conversation. So the goal is paramount.
Second to the goal. What the goal leads to is structure, structured information is processed more fluently by our brains. Our brains are wired for structure. So if I can put my content in a narrative structure, beginning, middle, end problem, solution, benefit, comparison, contrast, conclusion, these are all structures that help me as a communicator package my information more concisely and clearly and help me give it to you in a way that allows you to digest it in a more efficient way.
Those are critical elements and then we can have a conversation and be engaged. I am very certain, Greg, that in the conversations you have, and I’ve listened to your podcast, your podcasts are very well structured even though they have free flow and people take off on what other people say, it’s within the confines of a structure towards a dedicated goal and that’s what makes it engaging.
The final of the three that you mentioned is when we are in the mode of recipient rather than sender of the information, we aren’t just passive. We have to connect and validate with what somebody is saying. And you’re an expert at this, I’ve listened in and you do a great job of paraphrasing, bridging and linking it. It’s not just saying, “Hey, good point”. It’s saying that point really resonated and here’s what I take from it. That’s what paraphrasing does. It’s a way of validating not only the person but the content. And I believe if somebody can structure content that’s goal focused and audience-centric and paraphrase, you have the essential ingredients to being an effective communicator
Greg McKeown:
That in a sense they feel so obvious, in a sense, to have a goal to your communication, a clear intent to have a structure that goes with it. And then the paraphrasing is something that’s happening in the moment. It’s not exactly something you’d prepare for, although you could develop the skill ahead of time. And yet how often these things are violated, both in writing and in formal teaching, where in both cases you have a great deal of control about the goal and the structure. So in a sense it’s unforgivable.
Now here’s where I think it gets even more interesting and challenging is in everyday interpersonal communication. Because however important formal communication is, and I do think it matters, informal communication represents a far greater percentage of the communication we do than formal communication. So most of the time we are interacting in a way that is spontaneous. So presumably you think the same goal structure, paraphrasing exists in that context as well. But what do we do differently in a spontaneous encounter than we would in a formal setting where you don’t have the time to prepare?
Matt Abrahams:
So I believe the foundational principles are similar. And you’re absolutely right. If you reflect on your personal and professional life, the vast majority of your communication is happening in the moment. Spontaneous. You don’t have your deck set up, you don’t have your slide preview mode, you have to respond in the moment. It is all about in that moment listening for what’s needed. And when I say listening for what’s needed, it’s the nuance of the moment.
Let me give you an example. Imagine you and a colleague are coming out of a meeting and your colleague turns to you and says, “Greg, how’d I do? How’d that go?”
Well, if you click into your heuristic of, oh, this is feedback, I’m going to pick one thing, the person didn’t do well and give them feedback, you might have missed that what your colleague is really asking for is a little emotional support. They feel a little beaten up after that meeting. And if you just lay on another thing that they did wrong, you’re actually doing a disservice in the moment and perhaps damaging your relationship. So the first part of spontaneous speaking is listening in a way to figure out what is needed. And that means listening to what the other person says and listening internally to your own intuition. What does my gut tell me is needed here? That’s the first step to spontaneous speaking. So many people down the go ahead path.
Greg McKeown:
Yeah, keep going down that. Like beyond the 101 or 202 class. Like what’s the elite stuff? Listening for what’s needed.
Matt Abrahams:
So two things come to mind. One is silence. Allow for silence because in silence you give permission for people to step forward and say things that they might not normally say. We are very quick to respond when somebody gives us an opportunity, but if I allow for a moment of silence, people might say more, they might reveal more, they might feel more comfortable and feel as if they’re given permission to say more. That’s number one.
Number two, ask questions. So when somebody tells you something, when somebody asks you in the moment for feedback, ask a question, what type of feedback are you looking for? Are you looking for feedback about what happened or how you felt? And a certain type of question I think is very powerful is to ask for what you didn’t hear. So if somebody shares something, say, so I heard you say this, but what I didn’t hear you say was that. And that often gives people permission to go down a different path. A more personal or in depth response ensues and gives you insight. So those are the things that I rely on to really help myself listen better. And mind you, my wife always reminds me, I still need a lot of work on this.
Greg McKeown:
Well, you see, what do you do in that? How do you expand one’s listening intelligence to be able to know what’s needed to read the room, the moment perfectly?
Matt Abrahams:
So first, I don’t think there is a perfect. I think there is, but I think in that moment when somebody says, how’d I do? What’s that feedback? I think a really legitimate helpful response is, how did it feel for you? So I respond by asking a question that comes from a true sense of inquiry and by saying, how did it feel for you? And the person says, well, you know, it was rough because of this and this. And then I pause for a moment and give them a little extra space. And they might say, and you know, it’s also about this issue too. And in that asking the question of how they felt and then giving them that extra space, I believe I would gain a tremendous amount of information that would allow me to respond better. So I do think the tools we talked about can work. It’s about how you execute them.
Greg McKeown:
Yes. I mean I love the point, the small but subtle point there of just pausing, which of course you’d alluded to by saying be silent. But a micro pause in which we silence ourselves for a second seems to be like there’s a version of the tools you mentioned, you know, be silent in that moment. Ask a question, there is a micro version of all of that. A micro pause, just one beat to get yourself out of your own head, to get yourself out of saying something reactive and foolish. In that moment there’s a micro question, oh, tell me what you’re thinking. Just enough with the intent to get to where they are precisely before jumping in with an opinion or a thought or something else. This would be, I suppose one way to think about the answers that you’re sharing your thoughts.
Matt Abrahams:
Absolutely. Slowing down is really helpful. I have a colleague at the business school, Collins Dobbs, and he talks about pace, space, and grace. And I really like those three. And in this moment you have to slow the pace down, especially when emotion is involved, things speed up. And then not only do you have to slow the pace down, you have to give yourself a little bit of space. Space, not necessarily physically, but in your mind from the immediate reaction that you have. Give yourself some distance from that and then give yourself permission. Grace is all about permission to go with what you feel in that moment rather than what you think is appropriate. What do you feel there is it that I put my arm, reach my arm around my colleague’s shoulder and say, “You know, that was a tough one.” Versus jumping into specifics. So pace, space and grace, I think are a really good way to think about connecting and responding in the moment, especially when emotion is involved.
Greg McKeown:
I remember that Oprah Winfrey, when she was reflecting on 30,000 interviews that she’d conducted as part of the Oprah Winfrey show, which is a pretty extraordinary number. I mean, anyone who’s actually done any kind of formal interviewing, whether it’s a podcast or anything else, when you think about it, I mean, you know what the numbers mean. And 30,000 is serious business.
She said every time, every time, no matter who it was, famous, not famous, done a thousand interviews or not, leaned in after the interview was done and expressed in one way or another. How was that? Was that any good? You know, how did I do?
They always want to be able to have that sense of validation. And so your off the cuff example of what we might say in a spontaneous moment to someone else after a meeting is still revealing of something deeper about our vulnerability when we’ve put ourselves out there, when we’ve communicated about something else.
What is your number one explanation of why people should invest to become better at interpersonal communication? Why?
Matt Abrahams:
From a very Pollyanna-ish perspective, I believe the world deserves to hear everybody’s voice. And many people, many people due to past experience, anxiety issues, concern, and issues of power and status, don’t share their voices. We need to hear differences of opinion, differences of perspective, creative ideas. So we need to take the chance and the opportunity to better ourselves in that regard.
What we know to be true from research is those who are better at communicating, do better in their work life, have more committed and connected interpersonal relationships and in general tend to be happier. So beyond just sharing your voice, there are very practical and tactical benefits from being a good communicator or better communicator.
Greg McKeown:
When you use the phrase everyone has a voice, it reminds me of two movies that are expressing almost the same moment in history from two different perspectives and two very different communicators. I’m thinking now of The King’s Speech in which King George is a known and painful stutterer who didn’t want to be king and certainly didn’t expect to be, who is suffering in his inability to express himself clearly. And the whole movie is around his need to find his voice. And there is that very classic moment in the movie where he finally expresses it to his coach, to the Matt Abrahams of his life. He manages to express it powerfully. I have a voice, I love that line. And he explores and discovers that voice and through a great deal of suffering, is able to express that necessary voice in the midst of the Second World War when a somewhat broken people needed to hear it.
And then the second is The Darkest Hour.
Matt Abrahams:
The one thing I’d say about both those movies is the characters that both those movies are about purposely worked tirelessly on their communication, their tenacity and grit to get better at communicating was critical. Winston Churchill is infamous for spending time to get better at communicating.
Greg McKeown:
I think it’s the core idea, the single idea upon which that entire movie is based. And of course, that’s only important because of the reality. It’s trying to capture that words have power, absolutely unbelievable power. Churchill at the key moment of disarray within the government that he was trying to hold together, he gives a grand speech and afterwards it’s captured in the movie, he’s turned the tide and suddenly everybody is with him and one of his opponents turns to someone what just happened? And he uses the line, he mobilized the English language and sent it into battle.
In all of our communication, there’s a theme I didn’t expect in our conversation, but it’s there and needs to be spoken, I think. And that is that in great communication there is always suffering seriously to go from a badly formed lesson, a badly formed conversation, a badly formed chapter book to something that’s good. The suffering involved to go from good to great, to greater. The suffering, to write something or speak something that names precisely the right thing at the right time for the right people in a way that can move them, that can inspire them, change them. There is suffering involved in that. There is a price to pay because it is an extraordinarily powerful tool you have at the end of it, maybe the most powerful tool of all creative forces. I’m serious about that. It strikes me as plausible, truly that the Second World War would’ve simply been different, could have ended differently, were it not for the words born out of suffering. Winston Churchill managed to bring forth. I’ll say it, give us the final word.
Matt Abrahams:
I 100% agree that words absolutely matter. And if you look at all social mobilizations, the power of the voice and the power of the words make a big difference. Think about the civil rights movement in the United States. Think about what we saw in South Africa. The ability to mobilize through words and through voice are critical. I often say something very similar to what you said, I replaced the word suffering with risk. All powerful communication, I believe, involves risk in the risk it takes to move yourself. To speak those words is tremendous as well. But in risk often comes reward. And I think you highlighted very nicely the historical rewards that came from the likes of Winston Churchill.
I love that we’ve had a conversation that puts communication at the forefront, that puts being audience-centric and listening in their proper perspective, in communication. Often communication is thought about what I the communicator do and what you and I have talked about is what we as listeners do to embolden and enhance our communication. So I thank you for that opportunity and I thank you for helping spread the word of what I think is critically important.
Greg McKeown:
You have taken the challenge, you have faced the challenge, you have achieved and succeeded at the challenge. You have shown to us that you can and that all of us can learn how to think fast, talk smart. Matt Abraham’s, thank you for being with us today.
Matt Abrahams:
Greg, thank you so much. It was a true pleasure.
Greg McKeown:
Thank you. Really, thank you for listening. What is one idea you heard today that caught your attention? Why did that matter so much to you? And what is one thing you can do within the next 24 to 48 hours to apply that insight?
If you found value in today’s episode, please write a review on Apple Podcasts. The first five people who write a review of this episode will receive access to the Essentialism Academy. You can send a copy of your review to essentialism.com/podcastpromo. Remember to subscribe to the podcast. It comes out every Tuesday and every Thursday, despite everything else that’s going along with that. I will see you next time.
