Greg McKeown:
Welcome. I’m your host, Greg McKeown. I’m the author of two New York Times bestsellers, Effortless and Essentialism. And I’m here with you on this journey to learn how to live a life that really matters.
Today we will share this new habit of highly effective people with you, along with actionable advice for putting it into practice. By the end of this episode, you will be able to lead better, whether you are the CEO or the CEO of your own life. Let’s begin.
Remember to teach the ideas in this podcast episode to someone else within 24 to 48 hours of listening so they can hope again.
Mr. Alex Budak, welcome to the podcast. It’s great to have you,
Alex Budak:
Greg. Thank you so much for having me.
Greg McKeown:
Well, you are doing extraordinary work at UC Berkeley, at the Haas Business School, and you’ve written a marvelous new book, Becoming a Change Maker. Your obsession is helping people from everywhere, including the people listening today, to be able to create more impact. Of course, in their work, in their leadership, in their life, to be able to make a high contribution in life, you have to be able to have an impact, and that means change one way or another. Tell us a little more about how you got here.
Alex Budak:
You know, in so many ways, this story is one of Essentialism, and Essentialism being a book that’s really inspired me. So I’ve worn many hats throughout my career. I began as a social entrepreneur, so leading change at the intersection of business, entrepreneurship, and social impact. Had the great privilege of running an incubator for social entrepreneurs in Scandinavia and then found myself, through a stroke of great luck, being at UC Berkeley, teaching this class. As I look back to all the things that have led me to this point, it’s all been about helping people find that potential in themselves, potential to lead positive change from where they are. And so when the opportunity came up to teach a class at Berkeley Haas, I jumped at it, and it teaches people how to lead positive change from wherever they are. And it’s my passion, as you said, it’s my obsession, and now it’s become part of this new book I am happy to put out to the world.
Greg McKeown:
So bring us into the classroom where we are working. What is it that you hope for people to be able to achieve from the time that they arrive to the time that they leave after a semester of a class with you?
Alex Budak:
My goal is to transform the way they think about change. I think so many of us merely try to survive change, just get through it. When you look at the space and scale of change today, we just wanna hold on and get ourselves through it. My hope for students and executives that I work with is that they get so comfortable with change that they can navigate it, they can shape it, they can steer it to lead positive change for themselves and also for those around them.
Greg McKeown:
I love this idea of being able to manipulate change around you, almost like a superpower. I can see somebody slowly developing the ability to, you know, like somebody could control water or fire, but in this case, it’s change. It’s this capacity to change. It’s to be able to handle it and master it rather than, I think, frankly, to fear it, which seems to be a norm. One of my favorite sayings is that everybody wants growth, but nobody wants change. And you are saying, I want them to embrace change. First of all, why is that so important?
Alex Budak:
Well, when you think about it, what do we have on this earth? We have our one most precious life. What are we going to do with it? And are we going to stay static from the time we’re born to the end of it? Or are we going to find ways to grow and develop ourselves?
But you know, it’s not just about our own personal development. How can you create the greatest impact on this limited amount of time that you have here? And I think change is this incredible tool that when we can leverage it for aims, it can actually have huge leverage to affect so many different aspects of our life as well.
Now, you can’t slow down change. You can’t stop change. But if we believe that the future can be better than the present and that we can play a role in making sure that it is, well, then that’s where change comes in. That’s where it becomes that tool, as you mentioned, to be able to shape it around us.
Greg McKeown:
An idea, I think, that has some power is to be a change agent in the sense or a change catalyst in a personal way that perhaps something bad has happened to you, maybe even intergenerationally. I think of the traumas that people go through or the massive challenges that they have received from no choice that they have made, and then they have the opportunity to say this far or no further, that maybe in my generation, by a choice that I make, I can weave somehow hope out of trauma, growth out of pain that sort of positive change instead of just passing on this little black box of, of suffering onto generations after me. Does that seem consistent with your thinking in this regard?
Alex Budak:
That’s exactly right. That’s what I’ve seen in studying thousands of change-makers around the world, that there’s incredible power that comes from having this sense of agency inside of us, that we can’t change the hand that we were dealt, but we can affect the way we respond to it. I think that’s a really powerful way to look at the world. As part of the class and in the book, I talk a lot about becoming the “X” that you wish you had become, the teacher you wish you had, the parent that you wish you had, the friend that you wish you had. And when you start thinking about things in that sense, it can feel quite empowering to say, Hey, I can actually lead change from where I am, and this tracks well with the research that I’ve done as well. So, of course, the idea of change-making can feel a bit fuzzy to some, but I’m in the world of academia at UC Berkeley, and so quite empirically research-driven.
And so I’ve conducted the first ever longitudinal study to look at how change makers develop over time. So you measure 25 different things across situational, behavioral, attitudinal, and then we look at the results. And I went into it as a social scientist. I went into it without any preconceived notion of what to expect other than just a sense of curiosity to try to understand are there essential inflection points, places where if these would be change-makers can make one change in their life, one change in their behavior, that this will have outsize effects in the rest of their life, in their leadership.
And so what we found in crunching the data is that the one thing that stands out above the rest is that the most successful change makers, those that develop the most over time, are those that have a sense of agency that instead of waiting for other people to give them permission, they step up and they give that permission to themselves. They start seeing the world as something that they can shape rather than something that is shaped for them.
Greg McKeown:
That reminds me of that Steve Jobs quote, “Your time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life. Don’t be trapped by dogma, which is living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of other’s opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition.” (1)
That seems in spirit to be consistent with what you are calling this agency. This heightened awareness of one’s ability to act rather than be acted upon.
Alex Budak:
Yeah, exactly right. And of course, easier said than done when it comes to that, but again, if we think about what’s the essential vision we wanna put out into the world for the way that we live? Well, what could possibly be more important than coming to terms with our own values, and our own vision and then feeling like we are actually an agent in putting that forward into the world?
Greg McKeown:
So you have these 25 questions. Give us a taste of the questions that you ask in this assessment.
Alex Budak:
So it’s everything from I’m comfortable doing my best work through and with others. Measuring, do people actually try to collaborate versus go on their own? I give myself permission to lead change one of the measures of if they have a sense of agency. I’ve led change that has scaled beyond myself, thinking about those inflection points. So it’s not just you working ten times harder, but finding those systems that work for you.
And so we try to look at change across all these different dimensions, recognizing that no single change maker will do perfectly on all of these. That’s not a fair expectation, but to understand where we are right now, where our greatest areas for development are, and then us behind the scenes crunching the data to understand what are those patterns and where are those inflection points that truly help people take those leaps in their ability to lead change.
Greg McKeown:
Yes, it’s like this marvelous idea that success leaves clues, and you are saying, Okay, as I study this in a more rigorous way, I can identify more precise clues so that we can help the other would-bee change-makers, like the rest of us, be more effective in actually bringing about improvements in our own lives and teams and beyond.
How did you come up with those 25 questions?
Alex Budak:
So a lot of the class is based off of my own experience as a change-maker. So I started off just again, giving myself that permission to step up and lead change. From there, I started realizing, well, I certainly don’t have all the answers myself. And so I began studying other great change agents, but in doing so, I didn’t just look at the famous names. Of course, there’s a role for the Gandhis, the Martin Luther Kings, but I also looked at the kind of everyday change makers, the people like Lila Ogren, who’s a worker at the Swedish Telecom Agency in the 1970s who helped transform the way we think about mobile telephony today. Brian Stevenson of the Equal Justice Initiative, all types of change-makers across all roles, all sectors. And then try to pull out some of these patterns. What are the ways that they think that they act? And then how can we see how everyday folks might embody some of these characteristics as well?
Greg McKeown:
Okay. So you looked at common behaviors among those that seem to be successful at bringing about change, and that’s the 25 questions is the most commonly formed patterns that you found in that general qualitative research that you did. From that you have then applied these same 25 questions, if I’m understanding it right across the longitudinal study. You know, coming back to the same people that you have worked with that have been in your class that have read your materials, and they keep answering these questions over time. How often do they answer those questions?
Alex Budak:
Yeah, every year, we follow up with them, and we also track to see are there big life changes that happen along the way. You know, did you become a parent? Did you get a new job or move to a new city? What are some of the like big external life change factors that may also influence the way you think about change?
Greg McKeown:
Yes. Because there’s two types of change that we are talking about as if it’s the same thing that, you know, we have one word for it, but there’s two sides to this equation. There’s change that happens to you, and then there’s change you bring about, and those are overlapping and intrinsically connected and interdependent, and you are trying to somehow understand how to effectively live amid change and also bring about change. Does that sound right?
Alex Budak:
Yeah, that’s exactly right. So we’ve got the world around us that’s rapidly changing on a micro and a macro scale, and there’s also the way we show up in it and how we affect that change from where we are.
Greg McKeown:
And it sounds like you are more particularly interested in, let’s call these type one, type two, change type ones with the change that happens to us and around us. And type two is the change that we bring about in the world.
Of the two which you studied most closely?
Alex Budak:
Yeah. Type number two, for sure.
Greg McKeown:
Yeah. And so from these 25 questions from these answers, how is it that you came to the conclusion that agency is the big one? That that is the factor that names everything else?
Alex Budak:
What we find in the data, we look at sort of two things here. So one is how much do people develop on their overall score as a change maker before and after? And in that, we see that agency is a key driver that’s highly correlated with development as a change maker. Then we also look at a score called change maker effectiveness. So that’s a series of five questions that measure one’s ability to lead systemic and lasting change. So we ask them the extent to which they’re resilient and continue pursuing their goals even when they face setbacks or resistance, whether or not they help others become changemakers, where they contribute to creating cultures which inspire and enable fellow change-makers, whether they have led or currently leading an initiative which results in positive change in some way, and whether they’ve been able to make change initiatives both scalable and sustainable.
Greg McKeown:
Thank you. And can you define agency? We’re using it as if there’s a common understanding, but I suppose and assume that you have a precise definition for that.
Alex Budak:
So there’s, of course, the precise definition we can talk about, but actually, like speaking in sort of poetic terms as well. So my favorite way to think about agency actually comes from the words of poet Amanda Gorman. So this is from her poem that she delivered at the inauguration of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. And so the final three lines she says are, “For, there’s always light if we’re brave enough to see it, and we’re brave enough to be it.” (2)
What I love about this line I think this captures this essence of agency. So first, for there’s always light, it’s a belief that tomorrow can be better than today, but it’s not just a belief that’s not enough. Then there’s also the idea that we need to see it and be it – question the status quo, see things in a way others may not see, but then also have that courage that unlocks that first step, not enough to just identify something, not enough to believe something. You have to go do something, have that courage. And so I like thinking about it actually in those poetic terms of how Amanda Gorman puts it forward.
Greg McKeown:
Well, it was an absolutely extraordinary rendition of her poem, both in content and style. One of the more extraordinary experiences that I’ve witnessed and fascinating for that on its own. So I love the feeling of that quote, that there’s always light, you have to see it, and that you have to be it. That’s what you mean by agency? So to you, agency is that capacity.
Alex Budak:
That’s exactly right. So that’s how I like thinking about it. Of course, we get into more specific agency definitions or, you know, if we think about like in a very traditional dictionary sense, the definition is around like your ability to have power and control over what you do. So I mean, we could think about it in that way as well, but when it comes to changing, I like thinking a little bit more. I don’t know, it’s almost a slightly more romantic notion of agency, but we can also think that in terms of, like, your power to actually control the world around you, the influence.
Greg McKeown:
Yeah. I mean, I do think it’s a fascinating principle and characteristic to have defined out of all of the others because you’re not even talking about the ability to do it. You’re talking about the sense that we can do it, the perception that it’s even possible. It precedes the ability to actually do it in the real world. But just to have a sense that this is the case.
I remember reading a study years ago that contrasted people in lower socioeconomic groups and how they interacted in high school with the teachers. And what they found was the primary distinguisher between those from lower socioeconomic groups and higher was, I think they used a different term, but what you are calling agency, and it grew out of whether you had had it modeled for you that life was a negotiation. If you are coming from, let’s say, something like an intact home, and you’re seeing parents who are interacting with other adults all through your growing up years, all through your developmental years, having conversations, negotiating, pushing back, figuring things out, finding options between the polite yes and the rude no.
Then when you went to high school, even though you didn’t presumably think that everything was a negotiation, if something really wasn’t working, you had some sense that you could talk about it, that you could step forward and ask a teacher to give you an extension or could we cover a different subject today. I mean, like that, you can even do that. Whereas those that hadn’t seen that modeled felt that it was a take it or leave it proposition, and in many instances, that meant that they left it and literally dropped out of high school because once it stops working for them, well, those are my only two choices. Stay in or get out.
And you are really going, let’s say this is a continuum, and on the one hand, there’s people in that situation, you are saying, What about the other side of the continuum? The outliers on the other side? What do they do? People who look around the world and say, Well, this thing was created by people. Maybe I could play a role in creating it differently. Maybe I can bring about change rather than just being a function of it.
Alex Budak:
A beautiful way of thinking about that, you’re talking about that study, it reminded me of one of my favorite studies that came out of UCLA, and I remember they were looking at what makes students most successful, kind of what, what can you predict about their behavior? And one of the things that they found is that it was whether students showed up to a certain session that was held during orientation, and that certain session happened to be held at 8:00 AM. I think it was on a Friday morning. And the idea behind it was that it wasn’t what was covered in that session. I don’t even know what that session was about. It was that, that these people were there to take advantage of all the opportunities that they had around them, that they were willing to get up and be part of that session, and the function of being there showed that they were someone who had that sense of agency.
Greg McKeown:
How does somebody take a step towards a greater sense of agency? If they feel quite trapped, if they feel, well, these are all the things I have to do, how can they take a step towards developing the mindset of I choose to? If I choose to, then I can step into changing what is going on.
Alex Budak:
Such a powerful question. So in the book, I put forward a new way of thinking about leadership called micro leadership. We tend to put leadership on this pedestal and look at those one or two heroic moments of leadership and feel like, well, if I can’t be like that leader, if I’m not that naturally charismatic, outgoing extrovert leader can’t possibly be for me. But instead, I think we need to change the way we think about leadership and instead think about leadership moments. There’s all these leadership moments that are appearing around us dozens, if not hundreds of times per day. Small little moments where we can step up. And so the question or my challenge for you is, can you seize those leadership moments, little moments where you can effectively serve others? We can step up where others are stepping back. It need not go from zero to 100 right away, but taking small little actions.
Now to be sure, being the CEO requires a lot of different levels of authority and a lot of big decisions, but so much of leadership is the sum of small little decisions and small little leadership moments. And so I think that rethinking how we conceptualize leadership from grandiose and big to the everyday and even the mundane sometimes and choosing in those moments to step up is really powerful. And even if we let one or two of those moments go, Well, here’s good news. More will be coming at you all the time. You just have to choose one step up and then do it again and again.
Greg McKeown:
If you have found value in this episode, please write a review on Apple Podcasts. The first five people to write a review of this episode will receive year-long access to the Essentialism Academy. Just send a photo of your review to info@gregmcewen.com.
Also, do yourself a favor and subscribe to the podcast so that you can receive these episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays effortlessly. The book Effortless and Essentialism, together, are designed as a formula to be able to help you to not only know that your most important work is always ahead of you but to be able to do that most important work that is always ahead of you. We’ll continue the conversation with part two.
(1) Stanford University. (2005). ‘You’ve got to find what you love,’ Jobs says. [online] Stanford News. Available at: https://news.stanford.edu/2005/06/12/youve-got-find-love-jobs-says/#:~:text=Your%20time%20is%20limited%2C%20so [Accessed 3 Nov. 2022].
(2) Gorman, A. (2021). The Hill We Climb.
