Greg McKeown:
Welcome. I’m your host, Greg McKeown, and I am here with you on this journey to learn and to understand. Today we are back with part two of my conversation with Tony Ulwick. By the end of today’s episode, you will better be able to identify the real job to be done with the people you interact with. That will increase your influence tenfold while significantly reducing the times that you put effort into creating a new product, a new service for somebody else that ultimately isn’t even valued. So let’s get to it.
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Okay? So you’ve got this half dozen people, and you are trying to get them to agree together in consensus on what the job is that they are trying to achieve. You get there. Now there’s some consensus. And then the very next thing you do is…
Tony Ulwick:
Is we take those same six people while they’re sitting there, especially if we can gain consensus in like an hour or so. And we generally have these people hired out for a couple of hours. So we have their time. The very next step is we then say, okay, let’s break this job down into its component parts. Let’s go step by step. Think of these as milestones along the way when you’re trying to achieve that goal. When you’re trying to restore blood flow in an artery, what is the first thing you’re trying to do? Then what is the next step and so on. And so we’re taking the job that they’re trying to get done and making them think about it in slow motion.
And what we’re doing here is we’re defining the job in problem space. So not solution space. This is not a process map focused on solutions, right? It’s a job map focused on problems. And I know that sounds a little nuanced, but it makes all the difference in the world. We’re trying to stay out of solution space, like stay out of the head of the drill maker, right? We wanna stay in the head of the hole maker.
Greg McKeown:
I just read some research. It’s a meta-study about all of the research that’s been done in the English language about problem-finding or problem-solving. And one of the things they did is they just did a ratio, how many articles are on problem finding and how many are on problem-solving? And they found that the ratio was different in different academic research areas, but they found that the range was between six to one. That is six articles in problem-solving to every one article in problem-finding. And that was at the lowest level, the highest level, it’s a hundred to one. So that there is this enormous bias towards solutions and this relative disinterest towards actually staying in what you just called the problem space. I think this is consistent with what you’re describing.
Tony Ulwick:
It is very consistent, and this is why, you know, people get into solution space so early in the innovation process and start creating ideas for products and then go prototype them and, you know, pivot and fail fast and all that type of stuff because they’re stuck in solution space. But what we’re saying is let’s be patient and disciplined enough to stay in problem space long enough to find the problem at such a granular level that we’ll have no trouble solving it, right? The solution will come to us, and will end up with a winning product.
So after we define that job, like I said, let’s break it down into job steps, not process steps, right? Process is solution space. That’s what are people doing? You can go watch people in what they’re doing and write down what they’re doing, but you would never understand what they’re trying to do. You know, why are they doing what they’re doing? So we wanna get out of that solution space, understand what they’re trying to accomplish, and high level high, and there’s an article on this in HBR back in 2008, The Customer-Centered Innovation Map. It goes into this in good detail.
Greg McKeown:
So all this is the same article you were just talking about a moment ago, isn’t it?
Tony Ulwick:
I think at the beginning, I was talking about an article in HBR called Turn Customer Input into Innovation. I’m not sure I named it, but that was where we started down the path of the Cortic example and the interventional cardiologist.
Greg McKeown:
Okay. So we’ve got clear understanding about what someone’s trying to achieve, what the job is to be done. And now you are suggesting that we follow the current process that they are trying to follow to solve that job?
Tony Ulwick:
Yes. I wouldn’t say it’s the current process. It’s just simply what are they trying to accomplish regardless of what they’re using, right? So people could be using different products around the world to get the same job done. So we’re not gonna ask them about their product and what they’re doing with the product. We’re gonna ask what are they trying to do independent of the product. And as it turns out, because all those people are trying to get the same job done, there’s one job map that represents all their needs.
Greg McKeown:
You are asking them what are you trying to achieve at each step in your process.
Tony Ulwick:
That’s correct. What are you trying to achieve? Not what are you doing, but what are you trying to achieve in the first step? What are you trying to achieve in the second step? And there’s generally 8 to 12 ish steps that people go through to try to get a job done. It’s kinda like milestones along the way of getting the job done.
Greg McKeown:
Is this their perception of how the job works? Like it’s a sense of, it’s their belief about the causative steps in getting to their outcome.
Tony Ulwick:
That’s correct. It’s what they believe they’re trying to do along each step of the way to achieve that final outcome, which of course, is to get that job done perfectly.
Greg McKeown:
And you’re saying perhaps you can do that in the second hour that you are working with them?
Tony Ulwick:
Yeah, exactly. It may take a little bit longer than that, but you make good progress in an hour, and you can start laying out those key steps in the job. You’re gonna ask what are they trying to accomplish along each step of the way. But let’s assume for a second the job is avoid being misunderstood. Okay, so how would you roll that out? So there’s typically a planning step up front. So, the first thing is probably to figure out, well, how am I being misunderstood? Like, describe the problem. What is actually happening, you know? And then maybe the second step is to determine the causes of being misunderstood. And the third step may be to devise solutions to overcome being misunderstood. The fourth step may be to confirm that those actions would work in a particular situation. And the fifth step is when you actually execute the job, right?
That’s where you avoid being misunderstood. Then there’s generally a monitor step after to see how well you’re doing. You know, has the situation improved? If it hasn’t, then you make modifications to get the job done better, and then you eventually conclude. So those are the key steps in the universal job app that I talked about. And so I like running through that mental exercise to see if that makes any sense, right? If it doesn’t make sense, then I’d say maybe that’s not the real job, but if it doesn’t make sense, you can start getting a good idea of how you might even structure your book right up front. You know, here’s the problems people are facing because they’re misunderstood, right? That’s chapter one if you will. You can have eight chapters, one of each job step, right? And just take them through each of those steps. So, in the end, you’ve taught them how to avoid being misunderstood.
Greg McKeown:
So when you outline that, that feels like quite a typical problem-solving process, decision-making process, and you’re just applying it to this particular job to be done. Is that what you generally find? Or are we trying to look at what people really do?
Tony Ulwick:
We’re looking at what they’re really trying to do, right? The exercise I just took you through is, is like my quick mental exercise to see how that market fits that model, right? But in the interviews with customers, you’re quite literally going through and saying, you know, what is it that you’re trying to do in that first step? And then, what are you trying to do in the second step? And you’re trying very hard throughout all of this to keep them out of solution space. We never ask people, what products are you using? We’re just saying, what are you trying to accomplish? Right? It’s really that simple. What are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to achieve? What are you trying to avoid? It’s gonna get you in the right place.
Greg McKeown:
Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Okay, so what follows that?
Tony Ulwick:
Okay, so now you have, let’s say you have your completed job app, and it’s all correct. The third step is to capture a complete, very granular set of needs. And we call these needs the customer’s desired outcomes. So these are the metrics they use to measure success as they go about and get that step in the job done. So let’s say you’re preparing a meal, for example, alright, there’s different steps in preparing the meal; it’s prepping the food.
Greg McKeown:
When you say a granular set of needs, how would we apply this step in your process to the problem I’m trying to solve in this research I’m doing?
Tony Ulwick:
Yeah. So the third step then is to really get at this granular set of needs statements. And so for every step that you’ve uncovered in the job map, you would then ask people at the next level, what are you trying to achieve, and what are you trying to avoid? Right? So if the first step in your job of avoiding being misunderstood is to figure out how or if and when you’re being misunderstood, there may be a number of statements like, you know, minimize the time it takes to determine the types of situations in which misunderstanding takes place.
Greg McKeown:
Okay. How would you know that you were missing each other?
Tony Ulwick:
It’d be your perception of that. Of yeah, how you miss each other. Yeah.
Greg McKeown:
But you’re saying that could be step one in the process. And so then, how does this connect to these needs that you’re describing?
Tony Ulwick:
That was an example of a need. So you, you’re quite literally going through in super slow motion and saying, what are you trying to achieve? What are you trying to avoid? What I’m trying to achieve is to figure out what situations I find myself in that this misunderstanding occurs. You’re trying to minimize the time it takes to define the root cause of that misunderstanding. You want to minimize the likelihood that you overlook a situation where you were misunderstood. There’s all these things that you’re thinking about that would say, “Hey, if I’m trying to avoid being misunderstood, I need to address all these very specific granular outcomes.”
Greg McKeown:
You are saying each of the granular outcomes is a need. Is that right?
Tony Ulwick:
That’s correct. That’s right. So that’s how I define a need.
Greg McKeown:
Okay, got it. Got it. So it’s not need in the sense of, we say, humans have general deep needs in their lives that must be addressed. You are saying if it’s something you have to achieve at a granular level, it is a need. And so now you will have a specific, very detailed list of granular outcomes you need to achieve in order to feel fully satisfied that your ultimate job has been accomplished.
Tony Ulwick:
Well, yes, Greg, that’s exactly it. So in most cases, there are anywhere from 75 to a hundred or more of these very granular need statements. And unfortunately, you don’t know which ones are unmet. So you wanna know all of them, right? Like, think about the next step in the process. We’ll figure out which ones are unmet. But here, you don’t know. And what we also have learned is that people don’t agree on which needs are unmet. So when you’re, you’re hearing a need from one person, it might be really important to them, but maybe unimportant to somebody else, but you still have to capture it. So you have all these very granular statements that from beginning to end when you’re done with it, it looks like a chronological description of everything they’re measuring from the beginning to the end of the process or the job in order to execute it effectively. It reads like a roadmap to success, which it is, it is quite literally the roadmap to success because that’s how they’re measuring value throughout that entire job.
It goes back to the IBM story I told, right? What are the metrics people are using to judge the value for product? It’s these statements because people buy products to get jobs done. Let’s define needs as the metrics they use to measure success when getting the job done.
Greg McKeown:
So you have this roadmap to success; this chronological description is the next step. Literally just saying, okay, well, how would we best solve all of these needs? Is this, is it just immediately jumping to that? Or is this something intermediate?
Tony Ulwick:
There is something in between. And it gets at the quantification of the importance of those needs and their satisfaction. In other words, what we’re trying to figure out, some of those hundred needs, which ones are unmet? If you’re trying to come up with a book that’s gonna be better than someone else’s book, then you wanna know where those other books fell short, right? Because they’re being hired as solutions to get a job done. So what we do is we put a survey out with those hundred needs statements in them, and we ask people to tell us how important each need is and how satisfied they currently are using the solutions they have today to address that need. So we have two data points, how important it is and the level of satisfaction. And what we’re able to do with that is to quickly figure out which needs are the most important and the least satisfied. Those are the unmet needs.
Greg McKeown:
Mm-hmm. Right? So,
Tony Ulwick:
So of the hundred needs, 10 of them might be really important and poorly satisfied. So your focus for your product and in your book is to address those top 10 needs. Now the chances of you randomly picking those top 10 needs and include features in your product that will address them is near zero. So what you’re doing is you’re flipping this around to say, hey, if I know exactly where my job executors, my customers are unmet, and I fill those needs, then I’m not gonna be the, you know, the nine out of 10 that fail. I’m gonna be the one out of 10 that succeeds.
The way I like thinking about this, Greg, is that people will buy products if they help them get the job done significantly better. Not 1% better or 2% better, but 15, 20% better or more, right? And the only way you can get the job done that much better is if you satisfy many of the top unmet needs. And so that’s why prioritizing them and quantifying them becomes so important.
Greg McKeown:
Does the survey go out to the same people who were in the original discussion? Or is it to somebody just another group of people?
Tony Ulwick:
It’s another group of people. Yeah. Just a random sample of the population of your target market.
Greg McKeown:
How many people do you normally survey?
Tony Ulwick:
Well, it depends. In B2B, we often have, you know, anywhere from 120, 180. And in B2C, we go anywhere from 360 to several thousand. The bigger samples allow you to cut the data and find segments of people that have different unmet needs and things like that. But, in your case, with a book, you’re only writing one book, I assume, right? It’s not like a product portfolio where you’re gonna have 10 versions of your book, and you’re targeting different versions at different segments of the market, correct? You have one product, and you’re gonna target the biggest population, right? You want that to appeal to as many people as possible. So what you wanna do is to take a look at that data that comes back from that survey, and you wanna address the top unmet needs that span the entire market.
The way I’d like to think about this is, you’re trying to find the most efficient path to growth is the way we talk to our clients about this. In other words, what are the fewest number of outcomes of those needs statements that you could address effectively with the book that will have the greatest positive impact on the biggest customer population? And the data will answer that question for you. So you’ll know that you’re focusing your energy and attention on what’s gonna matter most to your readers.
Greg McKeown:
On the survey itself, people are rating each item on a scale of one to 10, one to a hundred, how do you…
Tony Ulwick:
It’s not numerical, it’s five data points. It’s either not satisfied at all, somewhat satisfied, satisfied, very satisfied, and extremely satisfied. And we do the same thing on the important side, it’s unimportant, not important at all, somewhat important, and so on. And, so what you’re looking for, you’re asking people to tell you, you know, is this need very or extremely important, and yet it’s not very or extremely satisfying.
Greg McKeown:
And so now you have gold, you have the top 10 unmet needs, and now do you go to the solution? I mean, all of this is still in problem space, isn’t it?
Tony Ulwick:
That’s right, that’s right. And I know you’ve been ready to get into solution space, you know, throughout the whole conversation, right? Because that’s the fun place to be.
Greg McKeown:
No, I love this. I just am curious about where we are in the process.
Tony Ulwick:
You have it exactly right. So we’re finally there. So now you know exactly where to focus to create value. Now go have ideas right now that you know exactly what needs are unmet. Let’s brainstorm ideas around those top unmet needs and come up with a winning solution. So you’re gonna end up with a product, a solution that’s addressing those. Each of those needs may be, maybe if it’s a hardware product, you have 10 features, and each one addresses one of those needs, right? You’re writing a book, you have 10 chapters, each one’s addressing one of those needs.
Greg McKeown:
Do you think the process you’ve just identified can be applied to the lay individual, or does it have to be someone who is a product manager or working directly in product innovation?
Tony Ulwick:
I love that question, and I think you know the answer, Greg. It can be applied anywhere. It’s a problem-solving process, right? In any situation where someone’s trying to accomplish something, it can be broken down and understood at a granular level, and different solutions could be assessed to see which ones will address those metrics more effectively. And you can get a better result. It’s outcome-driven. It can be applied in any situation.
Greg McKeown:
Let me give a final question here. Have you helped coach people through how to apply this process in a non-work situation?
Tony Ulwick:
Only to a few friends to help them, you know, with maybe some personal situations, but generally no. No, but I can say we did some work years ago, about 20 years ago now, to try to understand if we could quantify the concept of love. And we talked to a whole bunch of people about, you know, what that job looks like. And it was very interesting because we came up with 30 criteria that related to the needs that they would get from a person, about another 30 that related to how they wanna grow in a relationship, and another 30 on how they wanna feel as a result of being with that person. And the combination was pretty powerful. So it, I’m just offering that up as an example because the application is the same everywhere, right? It can be.
Greg McKeown:
Did you survey it afterward to identify the top 10 unmet needs?
Tony Ulwick:
They were very different for everybody. Yeah.
Greg McKeown:
But you did survey it.
Tony Ulwick:
Yeah, we did survey it.
Greg McKeown:
But you weren’t able to identify a single set of 10.
Tony Ulwick:
There was general broad disagreement in the market as to what, you know, what was most important and least satisfied. It was all over the place.
Greg McKeown:
That is very interesting. I wish we could continue the conversation. Perhaps we will at some point. Tony, thank you for being on the podcast.
Tony Ulwick:
Greg, thanks so much. I appreciate it.
Greg McKeown:
Thank you. Really, thank you for listening to this podcast in general, but also this episode with Tony Ulwick. Imagine what would happen if you could take the process that he’s identified for really thoughtfully, thoroughly identifying what the real needs are of the people who matter most to you. Tony’s work is focused on the business world, but both the process and the ideas behind that process can be applied in every relationship. I’ve learned a lot. I hope you have too. What is one thing that you’ve learned? What is one specific thing you can do immediately to put this into practice? And who can you share these ideas with so that you can continue this conversation with all the people around you? Thank you, and I will see you next time.
